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Original poster

What's going on with Genspect?

839 replies

MalagaNights · 12/11/2023 17:51

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

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OldCrone · 23/11/2023 14:46

There will always be difference's established between men and women's clothing. If not dresses something else. Or the style of the dress. Humans want to advertise their sex on the whole.

Most people don't need to "advertise their sex". Their sex in almost all cases is obvious.

Why would I want to "advertise" my sex when my sex is so obvious? And even if it wasn't, why do you think I would I want to do this?

AlisonDonut · 23/11/2023 14:38

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:52

If half of all men wore skirts or dresses, then it would be normalised and thus less exciting to men with fetishes. Hence 'wear what you want'.

There will always be difference's established between men and women's clothing. If not dresses something else. Or the style of the dress. Humans want to advertise their sex on the whole.

You are right if we reached a utopia where there were no longer any differences in the way the sexes dress there would be no way to transgress.

But that will never happen & I prefer to deal with reality.

You infer I don't live in reality.

I know there will always be differences. They know there will always be differences. If there wasn't, there would be no boundaries to transgress. They need the differences to be able to transgress into them.

This isn't about clothes. It is about boundaries. It is all about boundaries. Hence wanting Genspect to be better at safeguarding. They had his book on their website, they gave him the ticket. They actively encouraged his participation. That needs addressing.

ResisterRex · 23/11/2023 14:29

There will always be differences though. Both sexes wear shirts but men's shirts don't have darting for breasts in them, as one example.

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Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:53

Kilts and other traditional clothing that are skirts or dresses demonstrate exactly how this can work.

Exactly.

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Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:52

If half of all men wore skirts or dresses, then it would be normalised and thus less exciting to men with fetishes. Hence 'wear what you want'.

There will always be difference's established between men and women's clothing. If not dresses something else. Or the style of the dress. Humans want to advertise their sex on the whole.

You are right if we reached a utopia where there were no longer any differences in the way the sexes dress there would be no way to transgress.

But that will never happen & I prefer to deal with reality.

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Woman2023 · 23/11/2023 13:49

If however there is a time when men's skirts have become a normal dress code, I'd have no objections to this being introduced to school for boys.

I agree with this. It doesn't make sense to introduce men's skirts in formal situations yet. Let men wear them socially until it's not weird and they are provided as part of the normal range of clothing. Then organisations can include.

Kilts and other traditional clothing that are skirts or dresses demonstrate exactly how this can work.

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:47

Shame used to be a huge enforcer of social norms.

We've done away with shame and this is the result.

People are no longer shamed for transgressing they are celebrated.

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ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 13:47

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 23/11/2023 13:33

Its odd that some feminist ideas 'clothes arent sexed' are embraced by men and other ideas 'keep men out of womens changing rooms' are ignored. It smacks of cherry picking to me.

I see it as men wanting to keep certain clothes sexualised. If men regular wore stockings in public, men would find it harder to be aroused by them, they would just become clothes rather than sexy.

So men are refusing to embrace certain clothes to keep their sexual intetest in them going, but at the same time pretending that they dont consider them sexual at all when they are the ones wearing them.

Maybe about as odd as how many men embraced the sexually liberated ideas of noughties feminists like 'sleep with as many men as possible'.

AlisonDonut · 23/11/2023 13:46

Thing is, it is the transgression of the male body into female clothing and the accompanying uncomfortable females who witness this that is part of the thrill.

If half of all men wore skirts or dresses, then it would be normalised and thus less exciting to men with fetishes. Hence 'wear what you want'.

They need female clothes to stay 'female only' otherwise they won't get their kicks. That's the point.

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 13:45

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 12:43

This is the one I remember. I can’t recall him saying it’s because it’s now permissible. Doesn’t really matter I guess. I’m just not sure such men would object to women making it permissible and want to keep it as objectionable, in my view they seem to think the more who see them as a woman sex object the better.

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds a little sadly.

https://amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv

Show quote history

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/grayson-perry-on-transgender-awareness-and-working-out-what-modern-masculinity-means-a3372916.html

'...the inveterate publicity-seeker, who is now 56, admits that greater trans-awareness, together with his ever-increasing fame, means that cross-dressing in public no longer holds the thrill it once did. “One of my joke regrets about becoming well known is that it’s ruined being a transvestite. Now I’m not the anonymous weirdo in the street, I’m Grayson Perry. I’m on duty. If I’m cycling in a dress, people want to have chats and a selfie. It’s nice but at the same time I don’t get that frisson of being ‘othered’ and stared at, or have the fantasy of being humiliated, which was all very exciting,” he laughs.'

Grayson Perry on what modern masculinity means

Artist Grayson Perry is still working out what modern masculinity means. As he prepares for a new exhibition and West End show, he talks Trump, trans-awareness and testosterone with Katie Law

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/grayson-perry-on-transgender-awareness-and-working-out-what-modern-masculinity-means-a3372916.html

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:45

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 23/11/2023 13:33

Its odd that some feminist ideas 'clothes arent sexed' are embraced by men and other ideas 'keep men out of womens changing rooms' are ignored. It smacks of cherry picking to me.

I see it as men wanting to keep certain clothes sexualised. If men regular wore stockings in public, men would find it harder to be aroused by them, they would just become clothes rather than sexy.

So men are refusing to embrace certain clothes to keep their sexual intetest in them going, but at the same time pretending that they dont consider them sexual at all when they are the ones wearing them.

Yes it's total cherry picking.

And yes where ever the norm moves to, the thrill will be transgressing it.

Which is why we didn't use to socially tolerate transgressing norms in public or formal situations. It was a place for conformity not thrills.

There wasn't a ban, there was judgement, social disapproval, ostracism, soft negative social outcomes.

Now judging others is worse than transgressing the group norm. It's open season for narcissistic fetishists.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 23/11/2023 13:33

Its odd that some feminist ideas 'clothes arent sexed' are embraced by men and other ideas 'keep men out of womens changing rooms' are ignored. It smacks of cherry picking to me.

I see it as men wanting to keep certain clothes sexualised. If men regular wore stockings in public, men would find it harder to be aroused by them, they would just become clothes rather than sexy.

So men are refusing to embrace certain clothes to keep their sexual intetest in them going, but at the same time pretending that they dont consider them sexual at all when they are the ones wearing them.

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:26

But as with so many differences between the sexes, there are different reasons for men wanting to wear "women's clothes" and women wanting to wear "men's clothes".

I agree, and I think this is what's been missed in the men in dresses is fine rhetoric.

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Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 13:25

Feminists and Queer Theorists: it's fine for men to wear dresses.

Feminists: but not if they're AGP.

Problem is which ones aren't?

I think feminists thought they were supporting expanding fashion choice and instead got kink.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 23/11/2023 13:22

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 08:20

I would say there is unlikely to be a direct safeguarding impact of an AGP man at such a conference.

The safeguarding concern would be from the follow on effect: people see an AGP man with horrible views about paraphilias being welcomed and accepted at a conference, ergo other men of similar ilk are welcomed and accepted at events with a direct safeguarding concern. Normalise men exhibiting their fetish in public, and it’s only a matter of time - likely days, the way these men are 🤨- before they push their luck crossing a boundary somewhere else.

That would be one view.

The conference allowed him to make contacts/friends with parents who would otherwise never meet him.

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 13:07

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:24

Yes repeatedly.

Saying men in dresses is fine.
Boys should be allowed to wear dresses to school.

On numerous current threads. For years.
Please don't gaslight me by pretending this isn't the case.
On this thread (see comment earlier about men in conservative dresses being fine)

Men and boys in dresses is a transgression of the current social norm, an abolition of the current dress codes around sex. Promoted by feminists.

Show quote history

I'm not sure that it's ever been promoted by feminists. More that it wasn't seen as a problem. Also that feminists have campaigned to do and wear things that were previously only for men, so to me it seemed reasonable that some men might want to do and wear things that were previously only for women.

But as with so many differences between the sexes, there are different reasons for men wanting to wear "women's clothes" and women wanting to wear "men's clothes". Trousers are practical and allow women to do things that they couldn't do in skirts. There is no similar argument for wearing skirts.

I don't think there has been a campaign by feminists for this though. Surely it's down to men to campaign if this is what they want. But somehow I think it's likely to be only the fetishists and a few arty types who actually want to.

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 12:43

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:17

No, he said both. Definitely said that it lost its charge/thrill now that it was more accepted.

Show quote history

This is the one I remember. I can’t recall him saying it’s because it’s now permissible. Doesn’t really matter I guess. I’m just not sure such men would object to women making it permissible and want to keep it as objectionable, in my view they seem to think the more who see them as a woman sex object the better.

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds a little sadly.

https://amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv

Grayson Perry: ‘Just because you don’t have a dress on doesn’t stop you being a tranny’ | Grayson Perry | The Guardian

Grayson Perry talks to <strong>Simon Hattenstone</strong> about frocks, pots and his latest project, a TV series exploring identity. Plus his subjects reveal what it was like being turned into art

https://amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:34

SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 12:25

Safeguarding is the only objection allowed.

Don’t be silly. Safeguarding is a transphobic dog whistle….

That's the attempt to remove the final objection. The only objection left in the way of queer theory implementation.

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Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:31

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:24

Who issues this 'code'?

Norms are established through mimetic culture in groups.

The code is observed and understood and copied.
Transgressions of the code are usually seen as a threat to the group.
Change occurs and new codes established through group acceptance of a benefit to change. Or enforced through dominant tyranny.

The idea there are no norms or codes and the group has to accept all transgression, or there is no transgression just lovely self expression, is a very new one, which doesn't appear to be working very well as the flaws become apparent, and I predict won't last.

I just wonder what we'll learn from it?

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SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 12:25

Safeguarding is the only objection allowed.

Don’t be silly. Safeguarding is a transphobic dog whistle….

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:24

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:18

'Feminists have promoted abolishing dress codes around sex'

They have? Where? What 'dress codes'?

Yes repeatedly.

Saying men in dresses is fine.
Boys should be allowed to wear dresses to school.

On numerous current threads. For years.
Please don't gaslight me by pretending this isn't the case.
On this thread (see comment earlier about men in conservative dresses being fine)

Men and boys in dresses is a transgression of the current social norm, an abolition of the current dress codes around sex. Promoted by feminists.

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ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:24

Who issues this 'code'?

Original poster
MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:19

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 12:07

The reason I think men in dresses should be fine is because it seems that if you say it's not fine, the next step is dictating what is and what is not acceptable for everyone. If we ban men from wearing dresses couldn't it be argued that we should also ban women from wearing trousers?

I disagree that it's feminists pushing the "no social norms" more generally. It's the "bring your whole self to work" proponents who are pushing this. There's no need to "bring your whole self" to work. It's sometimes acceptable to have a dress code.

Show quote history

There has never been a ban.

There was a view that people should stick by the code of the day or fear social judgement.

Social judgement is now banned. Safeguarding is the only objection allowed.

I agree about the bring your whole self to work. And I think the work code should reflect the social norm, which is different codes for men and women, so the transgressive minority cannot utilise the loophole.

I think what I've realised is that no rules or code just means the majority will establish a norm anyway which a minority will enjoy transgressing.
So a code for everyone is essential.

It may change over time but with consensus and for everyone, and will probably need to always have some differences for men and women as norms for men and women will always get established even if what they are changes.

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