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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you ever consider a transman a man?

455 replies

Sidaway · 11/04/2023 14:57

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman? | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

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6
QueenHippolyta · 12/04/2023 18:40

@Sugarfree23
I can assure you as a long-term lesbian, butch lesbians are happy to be women, they just don't do femininity ( make-up, high heels)
They DON'T have fecking beards and hate themselves!!

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/04/2023 18:23

NotAnotherBathBomb · 11/04/2023 16:13

Sorry I meant shocked that she WAS a TW, not wasn't.

Filters, not reality

Bosky · 12/04/2023 18:21

"Would you ever consider a transman a man?"

I find this a really difficult question to answer because until relatively recently I had no idea that transmen existed.

Before I knew that they existed I met a couple socially with their children and I assumed that the husband and father was a man. A couple of years later I had some dealings with the husband as part of an event I was organising. It was a few years later after that when a mutual friend told me that the husband was a transman. If I had not been told then I would still be completely in the dark.

Had I met that person when I was younger I would definitely have found them attractive enough to have fancied them, ie. with me thinking that they were a man.

This is all hypothetical about how "younger me" would have reacted if I had got into a romantic relationship with that particular person and then discovered that they were a transman. However, I suspect that the mere fact would not have bothered me back then.

When I was told that the husband was a transman, it made a few things slot into place and perhaps explained some things that I thought were a bit unusual about their behaviour, both on first meeting and then later in dealings about the event I was organising. Definitely not that this person "behaved like a woman" but rather that they were very emotional and seemed to have quite a high level of anxiety.

Again before I knew that transmen existed, I knew another couple quite well and I now suspect that the husband was a transman. I didn't question anything about appearance or voice ("camp gay male" is the closest description) or behaviour at the time.

Something that did deeply confuse me was the first time that I encountered the couple outdoors. I was expecting to meet them and a couple approached from the distance, who I took to be two women. As they got closer I recognised the wife but the husband, who I knew much better, wouldn't "come into focus" is the best way I can describe it. It was only when they were almost within arms reach that I saw who it was. At the time, I put it down the way that he walked, without knowing that gait is a distinguishing feature between men and women.

Another "clue" that I think I have to the fact that the husband was a transman is a shocking warning that I was given by a friend. He said that if my then husband and I were invited to stay then this couple, who seemed very straight-laced, might well invite us to sleep with them and that the husband would invite my husband to have sex with his wife.

I did know that the couple were open about having difficulty conceiving and they did go on to have a baby using IVF. I might be putting 2+2 together and making 5 but my feeling now is that the husband was a transman and that the couple were trying to trick male friends into impregnating the wife.

Now I know that transmen exist, I have my suspicions about a healthcare worker who I have encountered a few times as a patient. Short, very slightly built, deep voice, bearded - with the tiniest hands I have ever seen, very small hands even for a woman. I have always found this person really nice and friendly and easy to get on with, something about their manner being very reassuring and totally unthreatening. I guess I will never know but I have my suspicions.

If we are talking about considering a transman as a man socially, I would prefer they were open and honest. If I knew their status then I would not consider them to be a man but I think I would have a hard job considering them to be a woman. A female, yes, but a "different sort of female" to a woman. I am talking about someone who I would assume to be a man unless I had been told different. A woman who has just had a hair cut and declared that she is a transman is different. I could never consider such a person as anything other than a woman.

As far as "romance and sex" are concerned, now that I do know that transmen exist AND I know about the medical and psychological aspects, even if just testosterone, I would definitely not consider an "out" transman attractive. I would be much less forgiving than I suspect my younger self would have been if I now became attracted to a "stealth" transman who then explained, or revealed, themselves to me. I would feel that they had acted manipulatively and had not treated me with respect, just as with any other major deception.

My younger self would have been, "Don't knock it until you've tried it and what have you got to lose?". I have tried quite enough new things over my lifetime to last me til I pop my clogs and what I do know from experience is that neither a micropenis nor a velvet cup and boobs do it for me. Middle class leftie men are also the worst in bed and worst at relationships IMHO so they can fuck right off too.

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:43

They may in actual reality BE a lesbian who is presenting in a stereotypically masculine way. But they identify as a man, that is the transman part.

Please, for pete's sake, can we not confuse 'is/wants to be a man' with 'shags women and is not conventionally feminine'. Because fgs what were the past century of gay rights about if we're back to that? It's the worst of what lesbians have had shouted after them in the streets for years.

Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 17:38

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:21

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian?

..... you what?

I'm sorry, a masculine presenting female who has no confusion regarding their biological reality and identity and is attracted exclusively to other biological females - is more or less a bloke?

Seriously? Is that what you're saying?

Are we back into the realms of 'doesn't look femininely pretty = trans bloke' which was one of India Willoughby's gems of the day, and 'any female not doing pretty to be attractive to men, and not shaggable because refuses to do sex with men frigid = might as well be a bloke'?

It's like hanging out in a pub with a bunch of particularly misogynistic men in the bloody dark ages.

A transman, is a biologically female person who for a raft of possible reasons is wishing to present to the world an illusion that they are actually male. They may be of any sexuality, the defining feature is biological female identifying as a man.

A lesbian is a biologically female person who is perfectly happy being biologically female, may present in any way they bloody choose, and is exclusively attracted to other biological females.

I am about an inch away from identifying as straight until all this batshit passes by.

Calm!
Read @EyesOnThePies at 15:13, the transman she describes married to a lesbian sounds very much like a butch lesbian to me.

Ofcourseshecan · 12/04/2023 17:37

The thing is, they don't pass. As MrsTerryPratchett said, there are the pheromones. And my body reacts to that scent in a man I'm attracted to.

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:31

Still gobsmacked.

We've got back to the point of

Woman - stereotypically pretty, feminine, sexually useful to men. No inner life, and if not presenting in ways that create happy penises is not woman

Lesbian - if happy penis making then sex object for men, or is a bloke if sad penis involved. All depends on femininity and sexual usefulness to said penis. (obvs nothing to do with her inner life/feelings/attractions, women don't exist outside penis servicing.)

Old women = longer sexually useful to men = subhuman and pointless, sad penis. She's probably got a cat and a cauldron, if she fails to do the shitwork properly or opens her mouth then get the pitchforks.

The misogyny is stunning. Absolutely bloody stunning. There are actually people this regressive and oblivious.

Probably writing bitter blogs about being single.

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:21

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian?

..... you what?

I'm sorry, a masculine presenting female who has no confusion regarding their biological reality and identity and is attracted exclusively to other biological females - is more or less a bloke?

Seriously? Is that what you're saying?

Are we back into the realms of 'doesn't look femininely pretty = trans bloke' which was one of India Willoughby's gems of the day, and 'any female not doing pretty to be attractive to men, and not shaggable because refuses to do sex with men frigid = might as well be a bloke'?

It's like hanging out in a pub with a bunch of particularly misogynistic men in the bloody dark ages.

A transman, is a biologically female person who for a raft of possible reasons is wishing to present to the world an illusion that they are actually male. They may be of any sexuality, the defining feature is biological female identifying as a man.

A lesbian is a biologically female person who is perfectly happy being biologically female, may present in any way they bloody choose, and is exclusively attracted to other biological females.

I am about an inch away from identifying as straight until all this batshit passes by.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 12/04/2023 17:15

If all we have to do to get our single sex spaces and sports back is get a hair cut and start using a male name, call me Bob and fetch the clippers!

postapesto · 12/04/2023 16:57

WarriorN · 12/04/2023 15:30

I've stopped following this thread but found an interesting tweet.

A group of transmen set up a football team just for trans men, in order to avoid locker room issues. So they weren't harassed and felt safe together.

According to the video lost 8-1 to a men's team.

twitter.com/hannahberrelli/status/1646121529388744704?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

The irony of them talking about how nice it is to have a locker room without any men in it,for their dignity and safety...and all they had to do was to not be women anymore to achieve that.

PinkFootstool · 12/04/2023 16:55

Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 16:46

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian? 🤔

One knows they are a woman. The other is in denial.

Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 16:46

EyesOnThePies · 12/04/2023 15:13

  • straight women won't fancy them (missing something between the legs, and just not... quite right)
  • gay men wont (ditto)
  • lesbians wont (too masculine)
  • straight men won't (ditto)

Actually, my lesbian friend is in a long term relationship (married) to a trans man. She would never have had a relationship with a male person / trans woman and I think her Trans partner has only had relationships with females, before and after transitioning.

All the relationships I know of are based on sex attraction, not gender.

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian? 🤔

Dassams · 12/04/2023 16:41

Actually, my lesbian friend is in a long term relationship (married) to a trans man. She would never have had a relationship with a male person

Why not just call them two lesbians? Confused

turbonerd · 12/04/2023 16:01

WarriorN · 12/04/2023 15:30

I've stopped following this thread but found an interesting tweet.

A group of transmen set up a football team just for trans men, in order to avoid locker room issues. So they weren't harassed and felt safe together.

According to the video lost 8-1 to a men's team.

twitter.com/hannahberrelli/status/1646121529388744704?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

That’s just daft!

Not you!
But the whole pretence of being something they are not, trying to fit in with what they are not, then collecting a bunch of pretenders to be «different from the other girls».

Oy vey.

It reminds me of the druggies, I mean wannabe hippies in my youth who were just as non-conformist conformist as all the other groups!
I hope they grow up undamaged

WarriorN · 12/04/2023 15:30

I've stopped following this thread but found an interesting tweet.

A group of transmen set up a football team just for trans men, in order to avoid locker room issues. So they weren't harassed and felt safe together.

According to the video lost 8-1 to a men's team.

twitter.com/hannahberrelli/status/1646121529388744704?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 12/04/2023 15:30

Men look, feel, smell and even taste different to women in my experience

I fancy men

i would not fancy a woman regardless of what cosmetic surgery she had had

so it’s a no from me

and that’s not even getting into the reasonable expectation a straight woman in her reproductive years will have of conceiving a child with her partner

literallyarabbit · 12/04/2023 15:20

EyesOnThePies · 12/04/2023 15:13

  • straight women won't fancy them (missing something between the legs, and just not... quite right)
  • gay men wont (ditto)
  • lesbians wont (too masculine)
  • straight men won't (ditto)

Actually, my lesbian friend is in a long term relationship (married) to a trans man. She would never have had a relationship with a male person / trans woman and I think her Trans partner has only had relationships with females, before and after transitioning.

All the relationships I know of are based on sex attraction, not gender.

So your lesbian friend is in a lesbian relationship.

EyesOnThePies · 12/04/2023 15:13
  • straight women won't fancy them (missing something between the legs, and just not... quite right)
  • gay men wont (ditto)
  • lesbians wont (too masculine)
  • straight men won't (ditto)

Actually, my lesbian friend is in a long term relationship (married) to a trans man. She would never have had a relationship with a male person / trans woman and I think her Trans partner has only had relationships with females, before and after transitioning.

All the relationships I know of are based on sex attraction, not gender.

IsadoraQuagmire · 12/04/2023 15:02

Bamboux · 12/04/2023 14:39

The second pic on Google search is absolutely blatantly male.

I really like the sort of bullying, threatening, coercive undertone in the arse-licking article about that person:

(A note on gender pronouns: Indya is nonbinary and prefers to use “they” and “them,” but is also navigating how that works in a society that has long oriented around cisgender or binary trans identities. Most people around Indya use “she,” which Indya says is fine to use throughout this story. See her Instagram post in April about this very topic.)

https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a27378298/indya-moore-transgender-pose-interview/

I removed the Instagram link but I'm sure any of you can find it easily if you're dying to know more about the permissions you have been temporarily granted in respect of the words you use.

He actually looks remarkably like a male friend of mine. I watched a lot of that show he was on (Pose) because Patti LuPone was in it. He looked male on that too (as did the other TW) The show was pretty awful too.

HorribleNecktie · 12/04/2023 14:52

No.

Bamboux · 12/04/2023 14:40

Kanaloa · 12/04/2023 12:39

And especially as a young teen when your body begins to grow and change and you begin to attract very frightening and intimidating attention from older boys and men. It would definitely be attractive to think there’s this piece of fabric that will keep your body the same, a tablet that will keep you the same/ensure your safety and stop you from being catcalled and publicly harassed etc. I think for many of these young people it isn’t about wanting to be a man, but more about not wanting to change or become a woman.

I'd have bloody loved it. I was getting sexually harassed from the age of 9 or 10. It really ramped up when I started travelling to school on my own aged 11.

Bamboux · 12/04/2023 14:39

Thesharkradar · 12/04/2023 12:52

I looked at some online photos of this person and it's pretty obvious to me that they are a man ...just from the face

The second pic on Google search is absolutely blatantly male.

I really like the sort of bullying, threatening, coercive undertone in the arse-licking article about that person:

(A note on gender pronouns: Indya is nonbinary and prefers to use “they” and “them,” but is also navigating how that works in a society that has long oriented around cisgender or binary trans identities. Most people around Indya use “she,” which Indya says is fine to use throughout this story. See her Instagram post in April about this very topic.)

https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a27378298/indya-moore-transgender-pose-interview/

I removed the Instagram link but I'm sure any of you can find it easily if you're dying to know more about the permissions you have been temporarily granted in respect of the words you use.

Indya Moore Just Wants to Be Free

For the first time, the model and 'Pose' star details her harrowing—and inspirational—story of survival.

https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a27378298/indya-moore-transgender-pose-interview

Thesharkradar · 12/04/2023 12:52

NotAnotherBathBomb · 11/04/2023 16:13

Sorry I meant shocked that she WAS a TW, not wasn't.

I looked at some online photos of this person and it's pretty obvious to me that they are a man ...just from the face

IncompleteSenten · 12/04/2023 12:40

No.
A trans man is a biological woman.
I would not enter into a romantic relationship with a trans man because I am not a lesbian.
I would of course use the name they wished me to use etc but I would not consider them a biological male.

Kanaloa · 12/04/2023 12:39

And especially as a young teen when your body begins to grow and change and you begin to attract very frightening and intimidating attention from older boys and men. It would definitely be attractive to think there’s this piece of fabric that will keep your body the same, a tablet that will keep you the same/ensure your safety and stop you from being catcalled and publicly harassed etc. I think for many of these young people it isn’t about wanting to be a man, but more about not wanting to change or become a woman.

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