No rape took place outside Epsom church, claim police

[PILEALLTHEPILLSONTHEFLOOR]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86ezy3qvjno

Either that or the police intimidated the victim into retracting her claims for the sake of quelling the riots.

'they now believe the woman concerned "sustained an accidental head injury" following a night out and made "a confused report".

Being gangraped is hardly the sort of thing a woman would get 'confused' about. This is absolutely outrageous.

Yes your backside might be feeling a little warm. Since when has Starmer been like a dictator? What rubbish.
Look across the Atlantic at the Mango Mussolini. He’s pretty much a dictator and the US democracy is failing.
I am guessing you’re Reform or Restore.

He’s not from the area.

I don’t feel like that’s an issue in itself.

He talked in a v patriarchal way about how if the victims PARENTS got in touch he would help.
I took that to mean that he thought the victim might not want to speak to anyone so he was reaching out to her parents to offer help.

He has sent a massive document to the cops and loads of others (last week) which I have seen, full of assumptions and demands to the cops to release all the cctv to him

Can you share this document please? Without seeing the content it’s hard to know what the problem with it is.

I’m not seeing anything ‘agitating’ or ‘inflammatory’ in what you describe. What else do you have?

Yes, this is an issue but it's not the same issue.

All of the group we are talking about have already been accepted as children by the courts.

Yes, it's not true to say that 82% of gang rapes were perpetrated by foreign nationals. That figure is foreign nationals plus all perpetrators whose nationality was not known or recorded.

Of the 1864 perpetrators whose nationality was known and recorded:

72% were UK nationals
28% were foreign nationals

I also noticed USSR as a nationality on there...

They'll be people who came from USSR and settled but never went for British citizenship. USSR broke up but they don't have citizenship of any of the new countries.

It's worth noting that nationality is not the same as ethnicity. A lot (most?) of the Pakistani men in the rape gangs in northern towns are UK nationals.

You don’t have to agree with me, I’m just answering your question. He’s easy to find on FB and he has a website; I’m not invested, just giving my opinion on someone who was involved with helping recruit support for the protest.

i think most people are good hearted and well intentioned; I don’t like to see manipulation for money (which is my opinion of this chaps motives).

no issue with anyone who supports his endeavours. I am no apologist for rapists or nonces whatever they spring from.

Do you have evidence for that? How does the age dispute process work and how long does it take?

As I explained to a pp earlier, the police establish the identity of a suspect when charging them with a crime. This is standard procedure. They also check immigration status. So they will reliably be able to establish when they are charging a British national.

It is obviously less straightforward to establish the nationality of a foreign criminal especially if they have destroyed their documentation. Therefore the vast majority of unknown nationality will not be British.

This is good news surely?

Yes, I explained my reasoning again in my last post.

It's worth noting that nationality is not the same as ethnicity. A lot (most?) of the Pakistani men in the rape gangs in northern towns are UK nationals.

Agreed. While the figures I showed above are just for the Metropolitan police area (!), it is clear that men who have recently acquired British citizenship and commit crimes will inflate the number of crimes attributed to ‘British nationals’. This means that men of British origin are unfairly maligned by having the vast number of crimes committed by recent British nationals of say, Pakistani origin attributed as if they were of their group.

The extent to which it affects the figures is unclear.

In the same vein, it is also worth considering that in the time period 2010-18 I think people of British origin were still the majority in London. Our country has changed so much in the last few years that they are now a minority. It would be interesting to see the nationality proportions in a new set of gang rape figures looks like.

But you started off with this - There is a bloke who, in my opinion, is a massive grifter - soliciting donations ‘for his work’ etc; he’s been all over this in a rather worrying way, I’d say inflammatory. He posts as JAOC and purports to be an ‘investigator’. Very worrying when external agitators get involved to the extent he has

You accused him of being a grifter, inflammatory and an agitator and have concerns about his involvement. That seems like you are a bit invested but have nothing concrete on which to base that judgement. Could he also just be a concerned man trying to pull together a way of helping and raising a campaign to try and get the government to listen?

Many people are getting increasingly unhappy with the governments handling of the whole immigration issue and tensions like this will only increase. That is the fault of the government and authorities, not this fabled ‘right wing’ (basically anyone concerned about the changes being made to our country without our consent) that is conveniently blamed in an attempt to silence us. The government are not listening and we need to find ways to get them to listen.

I'm not sure I'd call it good or not. I think they need better data to get an irrefutable picture.

Anecdotally the three times I've been sexually assaulted twice were on public transport in broad daylight by men who seemed foreign, definitely not a culturally British background. The third time was a white British guy in a night club. I can well believe that it is primarily men of certain origins who are perpetrating assaults. Maybe not primarily but definitely disproportionate to their numbers in society. They need to collect the data to back that up but never will as it goes against the agenda.

It's part of the process of assessing their asylum claims. They've been granted asylum and placed in the care of the local authority as looked after children.

I'm not convinced by your reasoning. The data does not show that 82% of gang rapes in London were perpetrated by foreign nationals.

This means that men of British origin are unfairly maligned by having the vast number of crimes committed by recent British nationals of say, Pakistani origin attributed as if they were of their group.

They're not recent immigrants particularly. Some are but many were raised in the UK and quite a few are 2nd generation.

people of British origin were still the majority in London. Our country has changed so much in the last few years that they are now a minority.

This piqued my curiosilty, @CornishDaughteroftheDawn. Turns out British people aren't a minority in London, though the increasing diversity of the UK and London in particular is very interesting.

With no apologies for the Google summary -

Key Nationality and Birthplace Findings (2021 Census):

• UK-Born: 5.2 million residents (59%) were born in the UK.
• An additional 96,566 (1.1%) are Irish.
• Foreign-Born: Roughly 3.6 million residents were born outside the UK.
• Top Non-UK Birthplaces: India (323,000), Romania (176,000), and Poland (149,000) are the most common countries of birth for non-UK born residents.
• European Growth: "Other White" groups (including Polish and Romanian) grew significantly, with nearly 1.29 million residents (15%) identifying as such.

Ethnic Breakdown:

• White: 53.8% (including 36.8% White British, 14.6% Other White).
• Asian: 20.7% (with 7.0% Indian, 3.7% Bangladeshi, and 1.7% Chinese).
• Black: 13.5% (with 7.9% Black African).
• Mixed: 5.7%.
• Other: 6.3%

More info at: https://www.londonforum.org.uk/2025/03/19/whats-happening-to-londons-population/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London#Country_of_birth

FWIW, I agree that demographic changes now mean ethnicity, nationality, religion and sex should be accurately recorded for all interactions with police - suspects, victims and witnesses. You can't get a clear overview of what's happening without clear information.

The police, like other authorities, currently record 'identities' rather than facts, and I would love to see this die a sudden death. How people understand themselves matters to them personally but has no place in general analysis.

I'm not convinced by your reasoning. The data does not show that 82% of gang rapes in London were perpetrated by foreign nationals.

That’s on, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. If anyone manages to produce better data I’m open to being corrected.

They're not recent immigrants particularly. Some are but many were raised in the UK and quite a few are 2nd generation.

Ok, we could call them unassimilated migrants in order to differentiate. The men of Pakistani origin in the rape gangs clearly have maintained a set of cultural values which for them, were a key aspect of their offending. Their victims report that being white was a main factor in them being targeted. I think it is unhelpful to categorise such men in with men of British origin for statistical and crime prevention purposes. In some areas the level of offending by the rape gangs could well skew the statistics.

According to the figures, there are approx 70,000 rapes reported per year (although this is thought to be low compared with actual rapes). The number of victims of the Pakistani grooming gangs is hard to pinpoint due to repeated government and police failings.
There are a suspected 80 towns and cities affected and in the areas already looked at like Rotherham (1400 victims) and Telford (1000) recorded. If these areas are indicative, and we take the mean, that is 1200 x 80 = 96,000 perpetrators but if the experience of ‘Penny’ is anything to go by - she was raped by “hundreds” of men many times so that makes numbers so vast it’s horrifying. Obviously not all of these rapes are on the national statistics because of the police failures but some will be. it is a shame that even after all this time, ongoing failures in government has failed to stop or deal with this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpvxr7wv74mo?app-referrer=deep-link

For crime prevention purposes it must be recognised that there are distinct groups of men who have different drivers for their criminality which may be related to their cultural values or to behaviours normalised in their societies. We need to be able to talk about this openly as the police and government obfuscating the issues we clearly know exist just increases public concern.

I was covered in very deep cigarette burns, which actually burned through my skin into my flesh. By the time I was 13 and a half, I weighed six stone (38.1kg). I was abused every day," Penny, which is not her real name, said.…
…Even though some of her perpetrators were convicted of rape and trafficking, Penny said "hundreds of men" who abused her remain free to do what they want.
"There are lots and lots of men who were involved with us who have never been brought to justice. I imagine that if they had those sexual tendencies then, they'll still have those tendencies now and they'll find a way to fulfil those tendencies," she said.

Don’t you think other people like you might have thought you were silly and reckless and inviting trouble just for walking home on your own in a foreign country on an unlit country road? Even if as thankfully didn’t happen, you were raped? It wouldn’t have been your fault then, and it isn’t your friend’s fault now.

My point was ‘British origin’ as opposed to people whose families originated elsewhere who have subsequently acquired their British national citizenship.

’White British’ are 36.8%.

I assume that ‘UK born’ also includes people with families from British overseas territories who gave an automatic right to be here so I am not commenting on the merits, just the facts as it is pertinent to the previous Metropolitan Police figures.

100% agree. The government should be able to use this as the most effective way of easing public concern.

It is most telling that they don’t.

'UK born' doesn't mean born outside the UK.

'British' doesn't mean 'White'.

60.1% of Londoners are British born: UK plus Irish.

46.2% of Londoners identify as other than 'White'.

Please make up your mind whether you're complaining about people born in places beyond Britain, people without British or UK nationality, or people with brown skin!

Or all of them, but then clarify that.

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Again FWIW, it could be true that brown-skinned men, and/or perhaps men originating from certain countries or of certain religions, may be over-represented in sex crimes. Some groups may be over-represented as victims. It would certainly be useful to have solid information on this.

However, we need to bear in mind that if 46% of London perpetrators had brown skin, or 40% were born outside Britain, they would be proportionally represented.

If they are proportionally represented, 37% of the perpetrators would be white British; this would increase if more Londoners were white UK natives.

I agree we need the stats. As I understand it, the Home Office committed to collecting this data a few years ago but has been stymied somewhat by all the emphasis on 'identity' and various perceived conflicts with equality requirements.

I suspect the Home Office is nervous about publishing data on the ethnic/national breakdown of offenders, because it might lead people to have bad thoughts, and this would have a bad impact on community cohesion. And if police forces sense the HO is nervous about publishing the data, that's a pretty strong incentive to not collect the data in the first place.

Of course how that works in practice is, everyone assumes the cops are being shifty and dishonest, so if they don't say "the suspect is a white man" lots of people will jump to conclusions. And after the "Welsh choirboy" business, I'm not surprised.

Shabana Mahmood seems to understand this, but Starmer is under considerable pressure from Labour MPs to sack her before she does anything about it.

I'm not sure about deliberate suppression of evidence or reluctance to pursue certain nationalities/ethnicities.

The Home Office was very open about its concerns over organised Romanian crime networks and has successfully closed some sex trafficking operations, working with Romanian authorities.

I do think there's too much emphasis on the wrong kinds of 'sensitivity' within police forces, though it seems to be getting better by fits and starts.

Unnecessary

I know it's a bit of a derail, but I've genuinely never understood this aspect of feminism. A man does something awful to your friend. One of the ways you try to help your friend is by making suggestions that might minimise the chance of it happening again. Feminists: WHAAHH. YOU'RE BLAMING HER.

Interesting that there was a Pink Ladies protest yesterday in Westminster and suddenly we had the Stand Up To Racism (aka Socialist Worker's Party) out with their pre-printed placards "Stop the far-right".

You can tell that the Pink Ladies is a grass-roots campaign, whilst the opposing side are professionally (state) paid organisation.