Men who affirm TW

[Holdmeclosertinydancer2018]

This is something I've wondered for a while and a post from a woman on FB asking/stating the same thing prompted me to ask everyone's opinions on this.

I have noticed a large proportion of Trans Idealogues on both FB and Reddit go absolutely berserk when someone points out that TW are not, in fact women, but oddly, a large proportion of them are men.

Now I completely understand the women that have bought into this notion as women generally speaking tend to be more empathetic for their fellow human so are more likely to go along with 'be kind'. But what about the swathes of seemingly normal, gender conforming men that support it? I don't know a single man other than one in real life (who's daughter is apparently now a 'she') that support the idea that TW are women. What is their motive for this?

The TRA's who are now desperately claiming that 'no one has ever claimed they can actually change sex!!!' and that women are the ones who don't understand sex/gender are either unaware of the very public claims of India, Katy et al or are trying to do a determined backpedal on the 'sex is a spectrum, clownfish/fungi, 'it's more complicated than GCSE biology!!!' line because they've finally realised it's unhinged and want to present themselves as a 'reasonable' voice.

I'm putting my money on a huge reverse ferret...

If woman is a 'gender word' what is the equivalent 'sex word' please? Because female doesn't necessarily mean human or adult so if we are giving 'woman' away to anyone who wants it we need a way to describe people of the female sex feeling a way to define that category for sports, medicine, prisons etc where sex really does matter. If we can't campaign for cervical screening for women because woman now includes some male people what word can we use? There are times and places where biological categories are very important (boxing rings, prison cells, cancer screening programmes) so why do you believe it is more important to co-opt a word to cover an indefinable group based on a combination of biology and feelings? Why is it OK to leave female people who don't have a gender identity without a word to describe themselves? Why do the needs of women who can't or won't be shoved into a category with some male people not matter to you? Are they not human and needing their feelings taken into account? Why does be kind only flow one way?

People with transgender are not saying that they are the opposite sex? That they haven’t changed sex?

well now, there will be a few of male posters with transgender identities who have been posting here recently that would probably like to explain to the poster who is making such a declaration that they are wrong. Goodness knows how many pages of threads we have had these discussions on lately.

But apparently, we are being told what people with transgender identities believe by someone who considers themself an ally.

Willoughby and their cervix will be surprised to hear they haven't changed sex!

What is remarkable is we are being told how wrong we and that we should shove people into boxes or whatever by someone who has just treated people with transgender identities as a group with homogenous beliefs. They have just shoved them all into the same box.

But I think we should be able to create women + transwomen friendly spaces/groups.

Why? What do women have in common with these men that they don't have in common with other men?

I won't be debating any of my points.

Well there's a surprise 😭😭😭

Some who thinks gender critical people want genitals to 'dictate appearance, personality', someone who uses the term 'intersex' and thinks its a separate category to male and female and someone who says they won't enter into debate on any of their points.

Nothing remarkable here, just the same old, same old. We are nasty old meanies who won't let the poor sad men have whatever that want.

What the heck are you talking about @helenwaspushed ?

Trans identified men, including some who have posted on this site, are constantly talking about how their ingestion of cross sex hormones, their extreme body modifications and overall adoption of female social sex stereotypes, actually makes them the opposite sex. There was also that big- jawed lawyer on Channel 4, who complained about the Supreme Court decision saying that every 'cell in his body has become feminised', so because of that, he shouldn't be excluded from female spaces.

I was just reading a comment from a self proclaimed "transsexual woman" activist, on a substack article regarding the paused puberty trials, who asserted multiple times that sex is mutable because children who are given exogenous cross sex hormones early enough, will grow up to be the opposite sex. Here's part of their comment: "An MtF ends up a sterile female, from molecular biology up to phenotype. For example."

During the recent Sandie Peggie employment tribunal, the transwoman doctor Theodore "Beth" Upton, described himself as a "biological woman" who would impose himself on female patients in the event that they requested a female doctor for intimate care.

Here's an excellent article with multiple examples of trans-identified men, including prominent activists, describing themselves as "biological women."
https://speakingplainly.substack.com/p/is-it-really-true-that-no-ones-denying

This quote is really apt:

"Is it really true that “no one's denying the reality of biological sex”? There seems to be a lot of people doing that thing that "no one" is doing"

Why? What do women have in common with these men that they don't have in common with other men?

@TheKeatingFive Spinny skirts and laydee brains, DUH!!🙄

I would love these discussions NOT to be dominated by a single POV @helenwaspushed. I've been open to hearing a rational well-founded argument from the TWAW side for years.

But there just isn't one. As you have clearly shown. Your points are weak and your language is emotive. There is nothing of any substance there.

Well yeah.

Also it was a great opportunity to tell us all that a group has demanded that language be changed just for them, and that anyone rejecting that forced language change is denying a person’s very existence.

All the time forgetting that having a transgender identity is based on someone’s philosophical belief about themselves and their personal subjective reality, that that demand has to be considered everyone’s material reality.

Women are conditioned from birth and by
many religions to be martyrs - to prioritise every other human being over themselves.

I hate little girls being told to ‘be kind’. Sod that. Teach them first to ‘Be safe, be happy!’

Women are regarded as service animals, rather than human beings with the same inalienable human right as men to the pursuit of ( individual) health and happiness.

Look at all the stories here of families maintaining relationships with the ex who abused their daughter, sister, even a child of the family. The male and his appetites must be appeased and supported.

Look at the schools, mental institutions etc using women to manage or soften male behaviour.

Look at the women who lack the self esteem, sense of self preservation or natural human instinct to get angry with and cease loving the men who abuse them.

What a load of old bollocks. You couldn’t debate that if even if you did decide to try.

Back to the OP. I think PP have covered all the reasons. It’s an opportunity for some men to get the pitchforks out and pat themselves on the back whilst doing it.

I know several trans people sexual assault/rape survivors the mental and physical health implications of not receiving proper treatment being able to guarantee single sex spaces can be great. GC people trans allies seem unconcerned with this entirely and just want trans people vulnerable women to conform to their own desires. Their health will continue to be a concern for those of us with friends and family going through it. Right now, transition single sex counceling is the most effective treatment but thanks to the trans lobby that isn't an option in many places.

Most GC women started from a position of compromise and what's the harm in .... but we realised that there is no compromise, no where that we are allowed to draw the line. If we call the man in a dress 'she' to be polite/kind he will leverage that as 'proof' that he is a woman and so should be treated as one in every regard, there is no this far and no further, it has to be prisons and rape crisis centres. There is no this is the mixed group and this is the womens/females/ladies/not penis having (whatever the word we are allowed to have to define biologically female humans is) group anything that is for women is either colonised or destroyed.

I don't want trans women to have no spaces or services, I just don't want them to have the spaces and services that are for women and girls. They can use men's services and spaces or they can create trans services and spaces but they can't take the things that belong to women. Women fought for their rights, they formed groups and services away from men. If Transwomen want the same it is on them to create them or get their allies to do it for them but they need to stay out of the spaces for women because as soon as you let in one man you let in any man.

This is just from mulling it over to myself but I always assumed it was because of the historical link between the left/Labour party to the trades union movement; trade unions often being very misogynistic traditionally. It’s all about protecting workers’ rights and those rights were, at the inception of the movement, male. And their rights needed to be protected from women amongst others. For example male workers did not take kindly to women being “in their jobs” after WWI. Women holding the fort while men were at the front. They were a threat to their livelihood.

I know it was a long time ago but I think it’s a cultural hangover. And working class men are often culturally very old fashioned.

Anyone, I digress from the thread.

Sex: male, female, intersex. Gender: Cis man, Cis woman, non binary, transman, transwoman

So @helenwaspushed which of those genders do you believe to "align" with the female sex, and why?

I won't be debating any of my points. I wanted to offer my perspective since these discussions are always dominated by a single POV

What you’re demanding is total control of the language used to define a woman. .
Tell your friends that they’ll always be inferior to the genuine holders of that label.

GC would like to exclude TW from ALL things for women. I won't ever agree with that because above all, they are human and deserve to have their needs taken into consideration.

Of course we do. TW are men and TW haven’t changed their sex. You even acknowledge that. Yet you want women to accept these men in women’s spaces?
Do you seriously believe that makes any sense?

Humans can’t change sex.

End of discussion.

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit thick, haven't considered all the issues the trans ideology raises and are predominantly left leaning types who subscribe to virtue signaling.

This is also my view. I have not really met many men that fall into this group, the majority seem somewhat distanced but overall not all that supportive, and some are very much against it whether or not they keep it to themselves.

But the Billy Bragg types, some of the people I've met in the arts, they seem to be really invested in a kind of preformative virtue, and couldn't form a coherent argument of any kind on any subject. They are typically the kind of people who will only read The GUardian.

Of course you aren’t debating it 😂

Of course you won’t be debating any of your points because none of them stand up with even the slightest amount of scrutiny. Like if genitals are not of any importance regarding gender then why are people having surgery to change their genitals and bodies for example.

I think that's part of it, but also lefty men think how virtuous they are because they aren't racist, disablist and consider the "common man" so much they don't notice their own sexism. And they're men, being considerate to a load of men.

We've been debating every point made in this post for years, pity you paid no attention to any of it.

What is interesting is that some people genuinely think that male people ‘pass’ enough to never have their correct sex identified. I guess some people cannot tell and believe this is the universal experience.

What is clear hypocrisy though is that apparently, we are to take anecdotal assertions to disprove that some people can reliably correctly identify people’s sex. Yet, MoJ statistics are to be disbelieved …“Single examples are overblown.”

I take the point that some of these men are a bit thick; however, a friend of mine is highly educated and intelligent yet believes TW are a "type" of woman, that they really reeeeeally believe it deep down and thus deserve to be treated as a woman. I've drilled down into this many times, believe me! But it all seems to hang on TW's depth of feeling. We've seen that argued on here too.

Women are not a feeling.

I'm not left wing nor am I pro-trans but I can nevertheless understand the thought process of the pro-trans movement. There is logic to it even if you disagree with it. To them society is about oppression. Men oppress women, and women oppress transwomen. When you compare oppression/persecution, trans people sit at the top, which is why there is a moral obligation to fight for their rights over all other groups. Saying TWAW is a normative statement designed to help the community (not because the person actually believes it).

People dismissing pro-trans arguments as just being about hating women or "being thick" don't really understand the crux of the issue. And if we are to fight their arguments, we have to first understand them rather than dismiss them as being just stupidity or lack of education.