Men who affirm TW

[Holdmeclosertinydancer2018]

This is something I've wondered for a while and a post from a woman on FB asking/stating the same thing prompted me to ask everyone's opinions on this.

I have noticed a large proportion of Trans Idealogues on both FB and Reddit go absolutely berserk when someone points out that TW are not, in fact women, but oddly, a large proportion of them are men.

Now I completely understand the women that have bought into this notion as women generally speaking tend to be more empathetic for their fellow human so are more likely to go along with 'be kind'. But what about the swathes of seemingly normal, gender conforming men that support it? I don't know a single man other than one in real life (who's daughter is apparently now a 'she') that support the idea that TW are women. What is their motive for this?

It's disappointing to see women reduce the definition of womanhood to whether men are attracted to or would f*ck someone it's really beside the point in these discussions. Many biological women aren't attractive to men not do they want to be, it has no bearing on whether they're women or not.

How about sex insulates them but class makes them think they are ‘in charge’ of women’s toilets/ changing rooms/ sports events and can therefore decide who gets to enter?

Those men are not going to be the men on your FB and Reddit discussion groups.

The men getting angry are virtue signalling (you know the type, those on social media moaning about "flag shaggers" whilst their profile has every flag on it), they do it improve their social standing and to insulate themselves from calls that they should lose their jobs or cede their rights for diversity etc.

For them diversity and minority rights only exist to further their own standing (and TBF a lot of women do the same too).

I think its primarily class. Social justice campaigning has always been spearheaded by highly educated young people with money. Worķing class people (men and women) don't have the time or resources to be fighting one way or the other, even if it does directly affect them. This issue is very much one for the privileged middle class to debate/fight.

Feeling he has the right to be in charge of things pertaining to women isn't just the preserve of the MC male.
I think there is almost certainly a class divide when it comes to active support for trans issues, which I'd put down to greater exposure to TI via universities and 'progressive' office environments. However, when it comes to an inability to see TI as a threat to women, I think the influencing factor is sex not class.

I’ve noticed this too and for some reason I’m far more irritated by men affirming TW than I am women. A woman has some entitlement to decide who is accepted into her woman group (even if I vehemently disagree with her, I feel that she should at least have a voice in the conversation).

But men announcing what they think a woman is? 😡 My first reaction is always ‘How fucking dare you?’ Especially when they give their opinion that TW should be welcome in women’s loos and changing rooms. WTF?

I think there are a range of reasons, as mentioned by PPs.

It doesn’t affect them because they don’t feel unsafe in their spaces even if TM use them. They don’t actually know what it’s like to feel wary of a whole sex class of people. In other words, they have privilege that they don’t recognise.

For some it’s because they’re sexist and/or thick. They really believe ‘woman’ means ‘someone who wears lipstick and drinks Prosecco’ (or whatever stereotypes they believe about women).

I have been somewhat of a leftie my whole life but this particular type of leftie man has shifted me further towards the centre!

A lot of gay men are quick to affirm because they associate 'feminine' men and men dressing up in drag with the 'queer' community and so feel an element of kinship; plus many have no real empathy for women or women's situation at all in spite of all that 'gay best friend' stuff. Gay men can also have a high level of " ick" when it comes to female bodies and functions.

Plus an increasing number of men are fascinated by trans porn and have developed a thing for 'female presenting' men. They also have little empathy or feeeling for actual women. They are too focused on what it is they want from women sexually.

Some men who identify as 'progressives' pretend to validate TWAW but they don't really believe it. People like Billy Bragg. In this way he betrays that he was never really a friend to women in the first place.

To be honest, it’s completely coloured my view of one famous actor in particular who is quite vocal that TWAW. No they are not. You can say it one thousand times and it would still be a lie.

Depends on what you mean by social justice. There was a time when it was primarily focused on wealth/class inequality and very much spearheaded by WC people. Over time it's expanded to include other marginalised groups, such as POC and disabled people. There is much cross over between these groups and WC people, so WC people are still very much in the trenches when it comes to fighting for a fairer society. Perhaps the voices of the privileged and better educated drown us out a little, meaning the stereotypical lanyard wearing, flag waving, MC student takes centre stage.

A woman has some entitlement to decide who is accepted into her woman group (even if I vehemently disagree with her, I feel that she should at least have a voice in the conversation).

I disagree with that. This issue would be so much easier to fight if women were united (as it stands most women either don't care or are ok in having trans women in women's spaces).

So true.

See also: (straight) men who think that in gay male couples there must be a man and a ‘woman’. They obviously know that a man in a gay couple is not actually a woman, but…well, he might as well be because he’s so feminine and unlike all the straight men I know.

It’s that kind of thinking.

Which shows how shallow the male perecption of women can be. They register only the superficial presentations and symbols; whereas women can spot a man dressed as a woman from a mile off.

as it stands most women either don't care or are ok in having trans women in women's spaces

I don't think that's true. When you count men as women, it's actually impossible to say any way.

Yes, it is a form of revenge for bleating on about repression and the patriarchy for decades.

This actually makes sense. Amongst comments I often find men stating that feminism is to blame- literally one word posts just stating 'feminism'..

I always wondered what they meant by this as obviously all feminists wanted was the right to vote, work, be treated with respect etc so could never see the link.

So you're suggesting that women 'breaking free', so to speak, leads some men to be victims of our own success in a way and we are basically reaping what we have sown? What an odd way of looking at things some people have (these types of men, not you).

I think the point is that many men really do see women purely through the lens of sex and what it is they like sexually ( apart from their mum, their sister etc).
Males are far more prone to the objectification of female bodies.....whereby 'a woman' is just someone who has tits and a fanny. That's what makes them female.

This is also how AGP men tend to view womanhood - along with 'performances of femininity'.

believe we are victims of our own success, that was supposed to say.

Studies show that women are pretty divided on the issue (with a large number putting 'don't know' as their response). Until we can get consensus amongst ourselves, then I think we are going to struggle to keep men out of all women's spaces.

I'm aware of that and how it means they view women who are GNC older or just unattractive to them as pretty worthless. I dont think as women we need to affirm that opinion by asking "would you shag them though?" because you want to make a point about TW

I think the sort of feminism that is overly focused on 'equality' - which suggests that women are just the same as men (but repressed by patriarchy and by the facts of their own biology) - has had a part to play in this. This sort of 'equality' feminism is also behind the concepts of sex 'positivity' and prostitution as 'sex work'. So, for some men affirming men as women is saying to women -"you've got your equality now".

I absolutely agree that it would be great if all women were gender critical; sadly it’s not the case. But feminism is for all women, and so all women have a voice- even when what they’re saying is infuriating bollocks. Whereas men don’t need a voice in discussions about whether men can use women’s spaces- much like in abortion discussions, men’s views are not really of relevance.

Obviously with regards to TM using their spaces, men do get to have a say. TM going in the men’s bogs doesn’t affect me, (though I might potentially worry about the TM’s safety) so that’s for men to discuss and decide- not really my concern.

I don’t think it’s the case that most women are ‘TWAW’ or neutral. I’m sure there have been recent polls showing that the majority of people don’t think TW should use women’s spaces/sports. I don’t have a link but those surveys have been discussed here on FWR.

But this is what really confuses me. I 100% agree with you that many men see women as mere entities who have tits and a fanny and we're all familiar with the trope that many men will shag any woman that's available (see the males that linger past closing time at nightclubs in the hopes of getting laid by literally any woman who will have him).

But there does appear to be a correlation between men who state TW are not women BECAUSE they wouldn't shag them. For example, a FB post this morning suggested that straight men should be more open to the idea of dating and having relationships with TW as a bid for acceptance of TW as women and for diversity. The comment section was absolutely chock full of men stating that TW are men and many would rather 'shit in their hands and clap' than sleep with one because they aren't gay.

Going back ti my original post, all the straight men I know in real life would say exactly the same thing. I appreciate this may be confirmation bias on my part of course but I'm just not convinced that the men stating TWAW aren't actually secretly into Transwomen. I agree many will be social justice warriors and this just happens to be yet another hill they're willing to die on in the name of being kind but I really don't know many men who would forsake the truth for kindness.

I'm not sure most women do support men in womens spaces, or are divided. Studies are usually nothing more than surveys.

The backlash against the SC is from trans identified people and institutions, not women. If we did mainly support men as women, we'd be asking for law change, and im not hearing that.

It depends what space we are talking about. From memory, most disagree with transwomen in sports. Bathrooms and other spaces tend to be more divided in opinion with a lot of people not caring. Trans issues in general are pretty low salience.

Also I disagree that it is just trans institutions who are disobeying the SC ruling. It is also many female trans-activists in HR who are flouting it (HR has been captured by these women unfortunately). Along with womens organisations like WI and GG who seem to care about trans rights more than womens rights.

It is a form of cognitive dissonance that is common to anyone who buys into, or pretends to buy into trans ideology. They say it and 'believe' it socially and performatively, but not really when it comes down to it.