GLP are suing Virgin Active

[ByGreatGreenWriter]

https://goodlawproject.org/were-suing-virgin-active-over-their-transphobic-rules/

“So we’re taking legal action. We are representing two claimants who are members of Virgin Active gyms and who have been subject to discrimination solely because they are trans.

According to Virgin’s new policy, both of them can no longer use facilities like the pool and sauna because they can only be reached by going through either the men’s or women’s changing rooms.“

If true that sounds like discrimination?

Please quote the legislation which states this:

In the UK gender neutral spaces are only allowed to have one person using it at a time, so it would be perfectly safe for everyone.

Because mixed sex spaces are the default and single sex spaces are the exception.
And mixed sex spaces are allowed to have as many people in them as they are designed to hold.

Dudes (with boobs), as we saw at that topless protest they did after FWS.

What does that mean? One person using it.

At my VA there is a family changing zone. The showers are big enough for 2-3 people and they lock. There are cubicles that lock again big enough 3 people. And an open area with lockers. And some toilets. Some baby changing tables. It’s a mixed space. Designed so mothers can take their sons swimming without using women’s changing room.

If any transwomen turned up I assume that’s where they’d be directed to. Dh and I use it if one of us forgets our padlocks since we never get changed there anyway so just for leaving coat and stuff .

I think there’s a big difference between the people the protected characteristic and GRA were meant to help, and the people stonewall consider to be transgender.

We’re in the situation because of insane activists that pushed too far.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment means that someone who has reassigned their gender cannot be treated less favourably than any other member of their sex. In other words, when looking at discrimination, the comparator for a male with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment i is a male without that protected characteristic. So a trans-identifying man would not be discriminated against if he isn't allowed into the women's changing room because no other man is allowed in there either.

I read the release, but I don't understand the issue. Surely they can still access the pool and sauna but have to use the changing room of their sex, not their identity. I would be interested to know how other groups such as wheelchair users are accessing the pool as well. Maybe the facility is not designed to be that inclusive.

Discrimination is about deliberately targeting someone i.e. sacking them because of their protected characteristic. Surely if someone choses to transition then Virgin Active are not in control of that and they can maintain their rules.

Oh and just to add, there was a transgender woman/transidentified male in the gym changing rooms when I was in there and now I have " have been so worried about using the gym that they have either greatly reduced or completely stopped using some facilities for fear of being harassed."

@NotAtMyAge I think your analysis is correct

Puregym has also complied with the SC ruling:

You must use the changing room appropriate to your biological sex, or use the all gender facilities

https://www.puregym.com/gym-rules/

They would end up spending more money if they actually brought a case that could go "all the way" in court...

This discussion relates to gym changing rooms which are routinely communal, your comment re gender neutral provision derives from Workplace Regulations (1992) S:20, on the design of lavatories.

‘So they do have a duty to give trans people facilities where they would expect to feel comfortable…’

Really? Do they? A legal requirement to provide facilities someone feels comfortable using? Could to point me to the legislation that says they legally have to provide facilities that the user feels most comfortable with?

A trans-identifying woman was allegedly§ raped in a secure men's psych ward. There is a Mumsnet thread about it.

SLaM NHS Trust's trans-inclusion policies put this woman in a men's psych ward where two male patients were able to allegedly rape her within an hour of her arrival on the ward. This is in addition to the much older case of a trans-identifying man raping a woman in a women's psych ward.

Cases like that are inevitable when people are told to use the facilities for their "gender identity" instead of the facilities for their sex.

Facilities must be segregated by sex, for safety. If that makes some men feel sad, too bad.

§: The trial of the suspects is ongoing.

It's very Steve Bannon, the constant parade of loudly-trumpeted hopeless cases is no more than the Bannonite tactic, "fill the zone with shit". If GLP keep announcing new cases that prompts donations (that are not, let's remember, ring-fenced for individual causes but all slop into Maugham's warchest to be used as he sees fit) & distracts people from keeping up with existing cases to the extent that whenever he announces a "deeply technical" loss, his supporters have been dragged so much further into the morass of cases & attempts to bring cases, that the failure is not noticed or at best feels like old news.

Someone in another thread likened the GLP's cases to the scam in 'The Producers'.

Agreed but it was stonewall who opened up the category of trans to everyone from part time cross dressers and those with fetishes to gender dysphoric people. They also insisted on both "no debate" and "acceptance without question". Then went on to demand full self-id and the removal of all sex based rights (yes they actually campaigned to remove the single sex exemptions).
The most damming thing is not 1 single trans group organisation spoke out against the excesses of the TRAs or stonewall. Where were the transpeople saying not in my name? Where were the grassroots trans groups saying we wont partake in stealing womens sex based rights?
We both know where the "real" transpeople were, happily enjoying those stolen rights, and as many of us warned at the time the push back would hurt them the most. I used to feel sorry for them but as time went on and their silence became deafening I lost all sympathy and now all I can say is tough shit we're taking all our stuff back

'If trans people are not allowed to use the spaces of their acquired sex' they can use the spaces of their biological sex - that's the most obvious solution.

The configuration of separate women's, men's and accessible toilets works for 99.something% of the population.

I don't think 'feeling uncomfortable' can be used to justify the expense and disruption of adding a fourth space everywhere to facilitate a tiny, but noisy and occasionally violent, number of people - approx 250,000 out of a population of 69.5 million.

Third spaces in the form of accessible toilets for disabled people - over 16 million in the UK - are not provided because disabled people feel 'uncomfortable' using standard toilets, they are provided for people who actually need adapted toilets.

I agree. I don't get the impression many people actually know what they mean by the word "trans".
It's actually the distortion and pretence that 'woman is a feeling' etc that I think is most harmful. It's eroded all meaning and you (general you) can't even talk about women's rights, protections etc without someone getting in a muddle.

It's all disingenuousness and has reinforced horribly sexist thinking, as well as opened up many vulnerable people to serious harm.

Without this push I'm fairly sure I'd still be happily saying that there are a small number of severely gender-dysphoric people we should help in any way possible, but it's made me consider where my boundaries are in "being kind".

If you expect trans people to comply there needs to be adequate provision. Simply saying you’re a male it’ll be fine isn’t going to cut it. Do you think it provides dignity and respect?

Is this someone trying to pretend to be the OP?
What's with the similar-but-not-quite username?

I think the irony here is the trans people in the best place to speak out against the activists were the least likely to do it because they were quietly living their lives and didn’t make it their whole identity.

This is an interesting point and worth addressing.

You might be uncomfortable when you see a trans women in your toilet, but you can’t expect to never feel uncomfortable.

If the law says that trans women should not be in the women's toilets (it does) then being uncomfortable with a trans woman in the women's toilet is reasonable, because it's a situation the law says you shouldn't be in.

By contrast, trans women may well be uncomfortable in the men's, but so I imagine are a lot of other men getting undressed in male company. Nevertheless those are the changing arrangements sanctioned by the law, so people who are uncomfortable with those arrangements have to suck it up.

Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned

No, it wasn't. The law hasn't changed since 2010.

What do you mean by ‘adequate provision’?

Do you think trans identifying people will use gender neutral facilities if provided? Or will they still want to use the opposite sex facilities because they feel othered by gender neutral facilities?

Good spot.

There is adequate provision, male and female.
Their dignity is not affected by being told to use the correct sexed spaces.
Nobody has the right to respect.
These people need to understand that they will not be tolerated in the wrong sexed spaces anymore and if they enter them they will be confronted, shamed and reported.
Oh respect is an earned privilege which is a two way street not something that can be demanded by someone who doesn't show respect to others.

We are not asking for compliance, the law requires it. The law applies to all, even those who imagine themselves too special to abide by it, as news reports from the courts daily confirm. Men who persist in invading female spaces such as gym changing rooms are committing the offences of sexual harrassment &/or voyeurism & should be reported & charged accordingly.