GLP are suing Virgin Active

[ByGreatGreenWriter]

https://goodlawproject.org/were-suing-virgin-active-over-their-transphobic-rules/

“So we’re taking legal action. We are representing two claimants who are members of Virgin Active gyms and who have been subject to discrimination solely because they are trans.

According to Virgin’s new policy, both of them can no longer use facilities like the pool and sauna because they can only be reached by going through either the men’s or women’s changing rooms.“

If true that sounds like discrimination?

Did you miss the bit where the UKs highest Court said that providing a Woman only space to be used by females and a Men Only space to be used by males is fine.

Or are these individuals claiming that the Act says that service providers must provide a extra set of fourth spaces?

Looks like the GLP want to log some billable hours

What will be interesting with this case is seeing whether the court* says that providers of services must offer additional spaces for those who refuse to use the spaces designated for their sex.

*Which court, do we know? Also, if this ever gets to court.

As the law stands, it’s not discrimination (thankfully).

I could go into all manner of reasons why I think this is an entirely correct stance for VA to take, but thanks to the Supreme Court I don’t need to.

but let's not forget that we all of us feel 'uncomfortable' at various points and in various contexts in life, and there's no right to sail through life never having to confront any discomfort
Couldn’t the same argument be made about trans people use the they want? You might be uncomfortable when you see a trans women in your toilet, but you can’t expect to never feel uncomfortable.

If you choose to transition your gender, then there are going to be some consequences of that that are different to if you don't. That's part of what needs to be taken into consideration when making that decision, surely?
Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned

They are men.

what lengths?
most transwomen don't have any surgery, taking cross sex hormones isn't particularly onerous i think.
They have a clear choice: they can use the facilities that match their sex, or they can petition the gym to provide them with a separate space

"Couldn’t the same argument be made about trans people use the they want? You might be uncomfortable when you see a trans women in your toilet, but you can’t expect to never feel uncomfortable."

Well no, of course the same argument can't be made (unless you want to look like a complete fool), because it's the law that males stay out of female single sex spaces, and that is because of the fact (not a feeling - based on data and other evidence) that females are at risk of harm when males are allowed in these spaces.

Trans women are not expected to stay out of female single sex spaces because they are trans. They are expected to stay out because they are male. Trans men, who are biologically female, are welcome. It's not a trans-exclusive space, it's a male-exclusive space and that is mandated in law, for very good reason.

"Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned"

It wasn't, actually. The law hasn't changed, the Supreme Court just clarified the meaning of the existing laws. It was lies told by the likes of Stonewall that led some trans people to believe they could go into the spaces that aren't for them. It has left some of them in a situation they're not happy with, of course, but that doesn't mean we should break the law.

policy on bathrooms and changing rooms.

Bathrooms? Is that like communal baths? I think they mean toilets.

Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned

No it wasn't, but Stonewall, the head of EHRC at the time, (past executive of Stonewall) and others wilfully misinterpreted the law and LIED to people. Not women's fault.

That’s great. You see them that way, but they don’t feel that way so why would you expect them to feel comfortable sharing with men?

they don’t feel that way so why would you expect them to feel comfortable sharing with men?

Why would you expect women to feel comfortable sharing with men?

If I am in what should be a Woman Only Space and a man enters I am on notice by his choice that he has no respect for the social contract nor UK law so my "comfort level" is never going to be a relevant factor in his choice to transgress.

And men have never had lawful right to access womens spaces in the UK the hint is in the word womans space.

it's not a question of seeing them like that. They ARE men. They are biologically male, not female. That matters.

Each individual adult in our society has a responsibility to manage and regulate their own emotions. That's not something that can be outsourced to others. Anybody who's struggling with their feelings or sense of identity would probably benefit from psychotherapy.

Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned.

Sorry, but that's wrong. As the Supreme Court clarified in its judgment last April, the legal position has always been that single-sex spaces, services and sports are allowed and are based on sex, not gender identity. Sadly, thanks to Stonewall's hard work, far too many employers and service providers came to believe what you just stated, but they were always wrong.

Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned.

Was it? Because the Supreme Court didn't make any new laws. It just clarified and confirmed that the meaning of 'sex' in the Equality Act 2010, and in legislation prior to that, was always biological sex.

People who declare trans identities are othering themselves. Making an exception of themselves from what amounts to common, universal methods of categorisation and recognition.

We all know when a male person is in our presence in a female only space, and they know it too...which is why it is so incongruent and uncomfortable.

No its not discrimination.
These members will be able to access the pool etc through the changing room of their biological sex. The fact that these people dont want to use the correct sex facilities is irrelevant, the ability is there, if they chose not to take advantage of it because its not gender affirming or giving them the ability to change with the opposite sex then its tough luck, as other people have rights too.

It is vanishingly unlikely that thse trans-identifying males are new to men's facilities; they will have had plenty of experience of them already. Unless they went in the loos/changing rooms with their mums, up to age 8, and then continued to impose themselves on non-consenting women and girls by using the women's ever after, it's not new territory for them.

Regardless of how someone feels about themselves, the material reality is that transwomen are a subset of men.

I'm interested as to why you think the desire of TW to use female only spaces trumps the desire of women to retain a single sex space for privacy, dignity and in line with the law

It is not all about the individual and their personal feelings though. Public spaces, services and so on are often arranged according to common and consensual methods of categorisation, rules and boundaries which respect broad groupings.

So you think that their wish to feel comfortable overrides women's wishes to feel comfortable?

Why?

I assume it's a single, self-contained cubicle? Given the tiny percentage of trans people this does seem like a possible solution, although obviously it's not ideal that disabled people would have longer wait times.

Maybe they need to retain a dedicated cubicle with a keycode for disabled members, and build a second "whatever" cubicle for everyone else (the trans, shy, non-binary) that can't use the changing rooms for their sex.

No, it is a fairly decent size room with a shower, toilet and a load of lockers. It could be used by more than one person at a time.

No! Stonewall misrepresented the legal situation and got ahead of themselves and advised everyone else that their desired option was already the case.

It sounds like lawful discrimination on the basis of sex.