GLP are suing Virgin Active

[ByGreatGreenWriter]

https://goodlawproject.org/were-suing-virgin-active-over-their-transphobic-rules/

“So we’re taking legal action. We are representing two claimants who are members of Virgin Active gyms and who have been subject to discrimination solely because they are trans.

According to Virgin’s new policy, both of them can no longer use facilities like the pool and sauna because they can only be reached by going through either the men’s or women’s changing rooms.“

If true that sounds like discrimination?

It’s not our job to make them feel comfortable.
It’s been well proven that facilities provided especially for trans women are not what they actually want. They want access to women’s spaces.

No its not discrimination. Nowhere in any law does it say men with special identities cant be told to use the men's because they may be uncomfortable or that they must have special facilities to prevent discomfort.
The law says that they are men and should access the male single sex facilities.
The law does not recognise non binary identities.
Thr law does say that mixed sex facilities can be offered as an extra but does not mandate them

Like those drag queens at the Not All Gays event who ignored the mixed sex facilities and went in the women's instead.

Edit: I don't actually know if they were drag queens, or some other kind of trans-identifying males, just that they were men and they looked like drag queens!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Single sex services are permitted where:

• only people of that sex require it;
• there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;
• if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;
• they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);
• they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or
• they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

As you can see from the legislation, it is lawful to exclude a man from a women's changing room.

The legislation clearly takes into account the perspective of the woman objecting to the presence of a man.

The law is not 'men can be excluded from a women's changing room unless the man wants to use the women's changing room'. That would make no sense.

It would be absurd for these men to claim they should be allowed to change in the women's changing rooms because they identify as a 7 year old but if they claim to be a woman then somehow that's fine 🤷‍♀️

I think you're confusing sex and gender still.
To a genderist, the male changing room will have male people, who may "really" be women inside due to their gender identity.
Both changing rooms are for men and women. One is for male men and women and one is for female men and women. The genderists believe sex is irrelevant and gender id is what determines where you're a man or a woman. They have made this very clear. Therefore, if they're genuine in their claims, then there will be no reason not to go in the changing room for their sex, because it is for both men and women (gender).

Why do you think it's women's duty to worry about the "comfort" of men with identity problems? Why do you think such males matter more than the dignity, privacy & safety of female gym-goers? No point defaulting to "I don't mind", your consent is not transferrable,
They're male, whatever they or their falsified bureaucratic markers say. They belong in the male facilities. They forced their way into female spaces via emotional manipulation & lies about the law, now they're rightly being removed from places where they should never have tried to impose themselves.

What lengths? There is no requirement to go to any lengths. Are you not familiar with the law on this matter?

It really doesn't matter if some men claim to "feel like" women, that Umwelt is entirely closed to them for the simple & inescapable reason that they are men.
The strongest claim a trans-identified male can make with any degree of honesty is, "I feel like a man who pretends to be a woman".

I don’t see how a trans man or woman would feel comfortable sharing a space with someone of their sex when they’ve going to such lengths because that don’t identify that way

If a trans person who believes gender trumps sex shares a space with someone of their own sex, it would be hypocritical, and possibly transphobic, of them to assume the other people were a man or woman because of which sex they are.

I was saying nothing about them accessing female spaces. If trans people are not allowed to use the spaces of their acquired sex there needs to be gender neutral provision for the dignity of everyone.

If trans people are not allowed to use the spaces of their acquired sex

They don't acquire a sex. That's not a thing.
They change gender identity.

And single-sex spaces are gender-neutral.

Because you can be female and any gender, or male and any gender.

In my VA you can access the pool sauna and jacuzzi through the unisex family changing area which is now relabelled as inclusive changing. But there are 2 steam rooms - one in men’s and one in women’s changing and women do use topless witn just a towel so not sure how that would work??

I think you can put forward that argument, but it's odd that this isn't the argument the GLP is making.

What would you say about the definition of gender reassignment in the equality act? It doesn’t mention gender identity

”A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”

Surely we need to go back to basics and remember what the purpose of having single sex changing rooms is?! It’s not just about feelings and changing with people you identify with it’s about physical safety. There’s no evidence that I know of that trans identified men are at any great risk when using male facilities. However, there’s plenty of evidence that women are in real physical danger when men are allowed into enclosed spaces with them where they’re in a state of undress.

Of course everyone experiences discomfort sometimes, I don’t particularly like open changing rooms even when it’s only females in there. But I’m at a much lower risk of actual danger when there’s only women allowed and I’m allowed to call out any men entering the space without fear that they’re “actually a woman”.

Umm…. Because males with a trans identity are men. If they’re uncomfortable using men’s facilities, that’s on them to deal with.

What’s your solution?

My solution is repeal the GRA

And how does that help this situation?

I actually agree that the GRA is a bit of a pig's ear, and from memory it does talk about 'acquired sex'. It certainly includes enough exemptions to make it clear that people can't actually change sex, and the Supreme Court reached the conclusion that the PC of sex refers to biological sex. If it didn't, the PC of sex would evaporate.

Legislation often uses sex and gender interchangeably because until recently people used those words interchangeably. However, the more you push at the idea that people can actually change sex, the more you risk pushing over the house of cards that led to the GRA.

As a transman, my biggest concern would be that I might temporarily scare some women into thinking a man has come in. Other than that, I'd honestly feel much safer among the women than among the men.

Why should I be expected to feel comfortable undressing in front of strange men. I don’t care how they identify. I have a right to single sex spaces, occupied only by natal females.

Out of interest, what toilet facilities do you think trans identified men and trans identified women should use?

First off humans can not acquire a sex
• females remain female
• males remain male

Why should there be an obligation on a service provider to add an extra mixed changing area when the service provider has a female and male area?

Can you explain what added dignity a male user gains if he rejects the male provision and demands to have access to an area which is to used by both females and males?

Can you explain what added dignity a female user gains if she rejects the female provision and demands to have access to an area which is to used by both males and females?