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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Demonstration against Let Women Speak Oxford

312 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/10/2025 03:04

A demonstration organised by the campaign group Let Women Speak (LWS) took place today at Bonn Square. Around 100 counterprotestors also assembled, including members from the Oxford Green Party, Stand Up to Racism, and Oxford for Trans Rights (O4TR).
https://www.cherwell.org/2025/10/18/oxford-trans-counterprotest-women/

Event was https://www.letwomenspeak.org/event-details/let-women-speak-oxford-2

Counterprotesters turn out for trans-exclusionary feminism event - Cherwell

A demonstration organised by the campaign group Let Women Speak (LWS) is taking place at Bonn Square.

https://www.cherwell.org/2025/10/18/oxford-trans-counterprotest-women/

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 08:16

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 07:23

"I'm eager and willing to be educated by my self-appointed better, so please can you explain how the human brain impacts on society and how the sophistication of the human brain overrides DNA?"

How does one begin to explain the concept that it's just not the body but also the mind that evolved for the purposes of facilitating reproduction when the world view of gender criticals depends on that it doesn't?

An ideology that believes gendered behaviours are purely the result of patriarchal influences & not survival mechanisms can't process how our gendered actions influence societal sex categorisations let alone the biological variation that makes a minority exceptions to the rule.

"What I'm seeing is that a small group of people have stealthily removed rights from another group who were also protected by the Equality Act and who have now had those rights confirmed by the Supreme Court. Is that what you meant by the human brain impacting on society?"

Of course that's all you can 'see'….

Edited

I hate to break it to you but brains don’t have the capacity to produce sperm. Unless you are suggesting that all men’s brains are in their penis which in some cases could seem like a reasonable suggestion.

Anyway, another attempt to derail a thread from you - you are never going to prove that criticising Islam is racist. We are criticising an ideology and the people who practice it.

As to your ‘interesting’ theory below - have you forgotten about/erased homosexuals again? Oops! The only way the mind is involved in sexual reproduction is through sexual attraction. Sexual attraction that would cause reproduction is not universal.

How does one begin to explain the concept that it's just not the body but also the mind that evolved for the purposes of facilitating reproduction when the world view of gender criticals depends on that it doesn't?

deadpan · 20/10/2025 08:18

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 08:07

You said, in the post I was responding to:

Not sure what confuses you. She attended, very publicly, Yaxley Lennons march in London with a union jack around her shoulders. Now the flag shaggers are attending her LWS events.

So because KJ went to a march on immigration attended by many people and was in the same location as TR (possibly for security reasons as the trans activist lunatics actively threaten her life) for a while, you have now deemed all attendees (presumably including KJ) as ‘flag shaggers’ to be shunned at all possible opportunity.

You then decide, with no apparent evidence that these so called ‘flag shaggers’ went to LWS and start smearing KJ on that basis.

You didn’t say ‘it seems’ here, you just made a direct accusation.

That’s rather a desperate reach isn’t it?

Do you also have an issue with her wearing the Union flag around her shoulders?

If you don't think YL is far right that's up to you. And if you think he or his followers are genuinely supportive of women's rights and not jumping on a discriminatory bandwagon - as they see it - then that's also up to you.

You started talking about ‘flag shaggers’ being at LWS. You have provided no evidence that any such man (whatever ‘flag shaggers’ means to you) was actually there. You are now making up stuff I haven’t said about TR and ‘his followers’ - I haven’t even mentioned him. It all just looks like a desperate attempt to justify your dislike of KJK. You are entitled not to like her as I am entitled to think the opposite. But your dishonesty undermines your argument.

Such sweeping and tenuous attempts to show ‘guilt by association’ are obvious.

The articles didn't mention him, no, but there was reference to flags in the other article. There were two, maybe you only read the LWS one. And as I've already said, possibly twice, the flag link is to her attendance of his protest. If she was only seeking refuge away from some intimidating TRA's, and didn't agree with his sentiments, she would have made sure there was a distance, however figuratively. But she didn't, she wore a flag at a right wing march where right wingers were wearing and waving flags.
I don't really understand what youre after apart from being incredibly pedantic. I don't mind pedantry, but you seem to be going round in a kind of circle that appears to end with "do you hate Kjk?".
I've already said my opinion of her, so if that's what you're after, have a look back.
And, just in case you're after this too, because you aren't really as clear as you think you are, Stephen Yaxley Lennon is a far right activist. Who doesn't give one iota for women's and girls rights.

Slothtoes · 20/10/2025 08:24

I’ve always admired KJK (and donated to her in the past) for sticking her neck out and making it happen for women and generally not taking shit in a very aggressive atmosphere towards her. Her thought provoking, striking projections, billboards and public meetings and the coverage they get are needed to advance a GC message to the wider public.

Just as much as the people slugging it out on X are needed or the bloggers or the columnists and the activists, the people talking at the school gate or work or hobby meeting, the experts from different professional fields, the journalists, the service providers, the academics, lawyers, and the politicians in Parliament. It’s all needed. I thought KJK’s trips to America several years ago were fine and she was the first to test the waters with trying to engage everyone to come in the tent to talk about women’s rights going out of her way to include those on the right. Good.

I don’t support this approach though if it’s either indiscriminate or not being clear about what’s changing and that that is in effect becoming discrimination in a particular direction.

To remain UK LWS as it initially said on the tin, people shouldn’t be able to be there to signal other issues or give the views about other issues, and doing that should be strongly rejected by LWS.

its not blaming a woman for the actions of men of they were to reiterate that a) any women of any view can come but b) the sole topic is women’s rights and that has to be the focus. C) your views will likely be challenged whatever they are. D) men have to fuck off (unless they are say, a carer for a woman attending or her kids).

So waving a flag or wearing a political or national symbol that isn’t a women’s rights one should be out. Because it’s a distraction from the important issues at hand which don’t get enough women being together with women airtime. This all becomes more urgent to enforce particularly since the disorder at the free speech Tommy Robinson and Musk event in the summer in London. It is divisive and threatening to have England flags at LWS events since the flags being put up in neighbourhoods in the UK which signal racist turf claiming, since then this will rule out completely a lot of women who would otherwise want to come to LWS and speak for fear of racist aggression or attack on themselves or on anyone else.

If people come without symbols to LWS events and then talk about women’s rights which includes their racists views then that’s part of public meetings and is to be expected in the current climate. Nobody has the right to support for their personal views. Everyone else has to hear them at such an event but they can also challenge them. Obviously nobody can incite violence etc. There have to be strict rules. They must stay on topic.

The strength of the GC movement has come from women of all political sides coming together on one single issue. KJK has contributed to building that strength.

But widening that to accept hot button political issues that are not laser focused on one issue- women rights- will change the LWS demographic attending.

The alternative for KJK is to rebrand as ‘Let a right wing woman speak with the focus removed from being only on women’s rights’. Then the power of that original LWS concept is lost and a different power gained which looks much less likely to advance women’s rights. But that’s up to her, it’s her party.

The left wing and centrist GC movement needs to also respond to these changing times and provide an alternative explicitly inclusive of all political angles set of women’s rights meetings, very carefully moderated to be genuinely inclusive. Sadly I bet this won’t happen because it’s very intensive on resource and time and fending off aggro, though I would love to see it happen. KJK was originally doing something amazing just on the power of her own personal gumption and that isn’t easily going to be replicated.

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 08:35

deadpan · 20/10/2025 08:18

The articles didn't mention him, no, but there was reference to flags in the other article. There were two, maybe you only read the LWS one. And as I've already said, possibly twice, the flag link is to her attendance of his protest. If she was only seeking refuge away from some intimidating TRA's, and didn't agree with his sentiments, she would have made sure there was a distance, however figuratively. But she didn't, she wore a flag at a right wing march where right wingers were wearing and waving flags.
I don't really understand what youre after apart from being incredibly pedantic. I don't mind pedantry, but you seem to be going round in a kind of circle that appears to end with "do you hate Kjk?".
I've already said my opinion of her, so if that's what you're after, have a look back.
And, just in case you're after this too, because you aren't really as clear as you think you are, Stephen Yaxley Lennon is a far right activist. Who doesn't give one iota for women's and girls rights.

No the issue I have is that you are now smearing all people who wave a flag at the event as ‘flag shaggers’ that support Tommy Robinsons views in their entirety.

You have made vast assumptions that these are exactly the same individuals that attended the march in London and are attempting to smear LWS and KJK on that basis.

Its your dishonesty I object to, not your dislike of KJK and the amazing organisation she has built.

deadpan · 20/10/2025 08:52

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 08:35

No the issue I have is that you are now smearing all people who wave a flag at the event as ‘flag shaggers’ that support Tommy Robinsons views in their entirety.

You have made vast assumptions that these are exactly the same individuals that attended the march in London and are attempting to smear LWS and KJK on that basis.

Its your dishonesty I object to, not your dislike of KJK and the amazing organisation she has built.

Nowhere have I said the exact same people who attended London attended Oxford.

Why is there a link between the women who attend LWS events and kjk's opinions but not a link between people who attend YL's events and YL's opinions?

Nowhere have I said I don't like her. If you'd bothered to look back you'd see that I say, I neither like nor dislike her. I haven't said anything about LWS in any derogatory tone. I said it wouldn't look good if flag wavers start regularly attending the events.

I'm assuming that you support YL otherwise you wouldn't be so dogmatic. Fill your boots love, I'm all for people believing what they want to believe. Even if it isn't accurate, that's the free speech and the freedom to hold beliefs we have in the UK. And before you imply I'm criticising that, I'm not.

I'm also not dishonest.

Easytoconfuse · 20/10/2025 08:58

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 07:23

"I'm eager and willing to be educated by my self-appointed better, so please can you explain how the human brain impacts on society and how the sophistication of the human brain overrides DNA?"

How does one begin to explain the concept that it's just not the body but also the mind that evolved for the purposes of facilitating reproduction when the world view of gender criticals depends on that it doesn't?

An ideology that believes gendered behaviours are purely the result of patriarchal influences & not survival mechanisms can't process how our gendered actions influence societal sex categorisations let alone the biological variation that makes a minority exceptions to the rule.

"What I'm seeing is that a small group of people have stealthily removed rights from another group who were also protected by the Equality Act and who have now had those rights confirmed by the Supreme Court. Is that what you meant by the human brain impacting on society?"

Of course that's all you can 'see'….

Edited

I'm amazed that you believe that you know what the world view of every person who doesn't agree with you is. You're wrong about at least one person because I believe that women are equal but different and that the only reliable way to define them is through biology because that's the only thing you can prove. I also believe in the difference between evolution and adaptive behaviours, but I don't believe that a man can become a woman because he feels as if he is one, not least because that reduces a woman to a set of male defined behaviours.

So farewell, in the old sense of the world, whoever you are and whatever you believe.

MyBundles · 20/10/2025 09:08

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 08:07

You said, in the post I was responding to:

Not sure what confuses you. She attended, very publicly, Yaxley Lennons march in London with a union jack around her shoulders. Now the flag shaggers are attending her LWS events.

So because KJ went to a march on immigration attended by many people and was in the same location as TR (possibly for security reasons as the trans activist lunatics actively threaten her life) for a while, you have now deemed all attendees (presumably including KJ) as ‘flag shaggers’ to be shunned at all possible opportunity.

You then decide, with no apparent evidence that these so called ‘flag shaggers’ went to LWS and start smearing KJ on that basis.

You didn’t say ‘it seems’ here, you just made a direct accusation.

That’s rather a desperate reach isn’t it?

Do you also have an issue with her wearing the Union flag around her shoulders?

If you don't think YL is far right that's up to you. And if you think he or his followers are genuinely supportive of women's rights and not jumping on a discriminatory bandwagon - as they see it - then that's also up to you.

You started talking about ‘flag shaggers’ being at LWS. You have provided no evidence that any such man (whatever ‘flag shaggers’ means to you) was actually there. You are now making up stuff I haven’t said about TR and ‘his followers’ - I haven’t even mentioned him. It all just looks like a desperate attempt to justify your dislike of KJK. You are entitled not to like her as I am entitled to think the opposite. But your dishonesty undermines your argument.

Such sweeping and tenuous attempts to show ‘guilt by association’ are obvious.

So because KJ went to a march on immigration attended by many people and was in the same location as TR.

This is so disingenuous, KJK was in a restaurant on the day of the march with Tommy Robinson having a 'pre match brunch' where he filmed himself with her, said she was part of his "inner circle" and released the video on his X page.

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 09:15

So waving a flag or wearing a political or national symbol that isn’t a women’s rights one should be out. Because it’s a distraction from the important issues at hand which don’t get enough women being together with women airtime.

I agree with much of what you said @Slothtoes but as far as anyone has offered evidence for, the only ‘national’ flags being waved had Terf Island written on so are women’s rights flags. No one has offered any evidence otherwise and I do think it is a bit much to expect her to police every single flag brought to her event.

The people who dislike her, even on here, have shown themselves to be dishonest in the way they twist and misrepresent her every interaction . I think she has said before that it isn’t worth the effort to attempt to second guess and curate everything she does and says as the people who dislike her will dig and smear regardless.

KJK is also entitled to support her own issues. I don’t think she went on the London march under the LWS banner and I don’t see why that should detract from the huge achievements she has made for women.

Unfortunately there are always those who will try and take down someone as brave and focused as KJK and sadly, there are those that will listen to the lies and smears. There’s not a lot she can do about that.

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 09:18

Easytoconfuse · 20/10/2025 08:58

I'm amazed that you believe that you know what the world view of every person who doesn't agree with you is. You're wrong about at least one person because I believe that women are equal but different and that the only reliable way to define them is through biology because that's the only thing you can prove. I also believe in the difference between evolution and adaptive behaviours, but I don't believe that a man can become a woman because he feels as if he is one, not least because that reduces a woman to a set of male defined behaviours.

So farewell, in the old sense of the world, whoever you are and whatever you believe.

"and that the only reliable way to define them is through biology because that's the only thing you can prove."

False. Sex distinctive behaviours aren't figments of the imagination. If they were gender criticals wouldn't need to exclude males from 'private spaces' 'cause violence'…..

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 09:55

deadpan · 20/10/2025 08:52

Nowhere have I said the exact same people who attended London attended Oxford.

Why is there a link between the women who attend LWS events and kjk's opinions but not a link between people who attend YL's events and YL's opinions?

Nowhere have I said I don't like her. If you'd bothered to look back you'd see that I say, I neither like nor dislike her. I haven't said anything about LWS in any derogatory tone. I said it wouldn't look good if flag wavers start regularly attending the events.

I'm assuming that you support YL otherwise you wouldn't be so dogmatic. Fill your boots love, I'm all for people believing what they want to believe. Even if it isn't accurate, that's the free speech and the freedom to hold beliefs we have in the UK. And before you imply I'm criticising that, I'm not.

I'm also not dishonest.

Nowhere have I said the exact same people who attended London attended Oxford.

You said this:

Not sure what confuses you. She attended, very publicly, Yaxley Lennons march in London with a union jack around her shoulders. Now the flag shaggers are attending her LWS events.

What else did you mean?

Nowhere have I said I don't like her. If you'd bothered to look back you'd see that I say, I neither like nor dislike her.

Ok, fine. Your words belie that claim.

I haven't said anything about LWS in any derogatory tone.

I said you were smearing LWS and KJK by making unevidenced claims that to use your disgustingly derogatory term ‘flag shaggers’ were attending her events. But Now the flag shaggers are attending her LWS events. does sound pretty derogatory.

I'm assuming that you support YL otherwise you wouldn't be so dogmatic

Again, wild and totally unfounded accusations. I have made it clear why I am objecting to your repeated and unevidenced attempts at smears and extremely derogatory language and it’s got nothing to do with TR.

I'm also not dishonest. Imo you are - see below for an example.

I said it wouldn't look good if flag wavers start regularly attending the events.

but actually you said Now the flag shaggers are attending her LWS events.. (My italics)

Not the same.

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 10:05

MyBundles · 20/10/2025 09:08

So because KJ went to a march on immigration attended by many people and was in the same location as TR.

This is so disingenuous, KJK was in a restaurant on the day of the march with Tommy Robinson having a 'pre match brunch' where he filmed himself with her, said she was part of his "inner circle" and released the video on his X page.

Edited

he filmed himself with her, [he] said she was part of his "inner circle" and released the video on his X page.

He said that. Did she? Has she expressed a view on him? The trouble is, the people so desperate to smear her are so relentless that they obscure the truth. It’s not clear what the truth is here.

HothouseFlower · 20/10/2025 10:21

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 09:18

"and that the only reliable way to define them is through biology because that's the only thing you can prove."

False. Sex distinctive behaviours aren't figments of the imagination. If they were gender criticals wouldn't need to exclude males from 'private spaces' 'cause violence'…..

Question: do you deliberately set out to misconstrue every point and argument that's made on this board?

Or do you just genuinely not understand?

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 10:28

HothouseFlower · 20/10/2025 10:21

Question: do you deliberately set out to misconstrue every point and argument that's made on this board?

Or do you just genuinely not understand?

Nope. I'm just here to hold up a mirror. It's my 'special' talent. I'll go when my work is done if its any comfort.

Your'e welcome btw….

HothouseFlower · 20/10/2025 10:30

Your work is done.

So....

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 10:31

HothouseFlower · 20/10/2025 10:30

Your work is done.

So....

It's a long long way from done….😬

MyBundles · 20/10/2025 10:31

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 10:05

he filmed himself with her, [he] said she was part of his "inner circle" and released the video on his X page.

He said that. Did she? Has she expressed a view on him? The trouble is, the people so desperate to smear her are so relentless that they obscure the truth. It’s not clear what the truth is here.

Has she expressed a view on him?

All she did when he said she was part of his inner circle was raise her glass of mimosa to the camera — so I guess we’ll never know.

🙄

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/10/2025 10:45

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 10:28

Nope. I'm just here to hold up a mirror. It's my 'special' talent. I'll go when my work is done if its any comfort.

Your'e welcome btw….

Problem is you are holding it the wrong way round, so instead of other people, all you see are your own beliefs, prejuduces and projections bouncing back at you.

Transgenderism in a nutshell really.

Imnobody4 · 20/10/2025 10:52

I think I'll just leave this here, she's not wrong.
https://x.com/Docstockk/status/1979832463607189834?t=IacLcaGbeI_B6rDlYgXEzw&s=19

there's a small faction of GC feminism - all on far left - that simply can't compute anyone being on stage with someone they disagree with. It blows their tiny minds and keeps the chat groups permanently fuming. They are so limited in understanding of people that the only thing they can infer from it is "secret agreement". The purity attitude also stops them ever getting any proper coverage or engagement themselves because they can't lower themselves to appear with anyone who doesn't share their values, confining them to communicating with silos of others who agree with them - which ultimately drives them extra crazy as they all reinforce mutual delusions. They are obsessed with how things look to others; except they don't understand what other people see when they look at a stage with diverse views on it, projecting only what they themselves see, and driving themselves nuts. It is politically inept, guaranteed to keep them miserable and frustrated, and ultimately quite funny.

HothouseFlower · 20/10/2025 11:05

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/10/2025 10:45

Problem is you are holding it the wrong way round, so instead of other people, all you see are your own beliefs, prejuduces and projections bouncing back at you.

Transgenderism in a nutshell really.

Problem is you are holding it the wrong way round

😂

SionnachRuadh · 20/10/2025 11:11

Kath is spot on there. But it's not just ideological conformism on the far left. There are a lot of status games involved too, ironically for a group of people who say they want to abolish social class.

There are certain key status markers - an academic job, a seat on the executive of a white collar union, a wee column in the New Statesman, appearances on Radio 4 - and if you don't have one of those you're not worth listening to.

And it's very important to remember that, for this milieu of left wing GC feminists, they are ideologically and socially extremely close to the TRAs. Some have lost work and friendships on a point of principle, and I admire them for that, but ultimately what hurts them is that they've been exiled from their social circle, they'd really like to get back into their social circle, and they'd be happy if they just had permission to dissent on this one thing which is the only thing they really disagree on.

I mentioned the SWP upthread. As it happens, they take a TWAW stance. But what if they didn't? What if Dr Camilla Royle of the SWP Central Committee wanted to attend one of these conferences to discuss her banal views on Engels? Would they roll out the red carpet for her? You bet they would. Because Camilla is an academic who has credentials to talk theory. She isn't some low status woman worried about nonces in toilets.

Slothtoes · 20/10/2025 11:11

Jesus if she’s literally going ‘inner circle’ with Tommy Robinson Yaxley it’s all fucked. Very sad to find that out. That’s not an inclusive politics and she’s totally changed the concept. That’s grim.

BundleBoogie · 20/10/2025 11:40

Slothtoes · 20/10/2025 11:11

Jesus if she’s literally going ‘inner circle’ with Tommy Robinson Yaxley it’s all fucked. Very sad to find that out. That’s not an inclusive politics and she’s totally changed the concept. That’s grim.

I’m not sure where this ‘inner circle’ claim originated from.

I have just watched the video referred to and TR is filming a roomful of about 40/50 people. He starts on a table where Katie Hopkins, Any Middleton and several others are sat then pans round further past someone and KJK is standing with a Union Jack scarf on. He says “awright darling” and she says “morning” fairly unenthusiastically and puts her thumbs up.

He labelled the video “the A team” in his tweet. He didn’t tag her in it. So have people just made an inference about this ‘inner circle’ comment being claimed or is there actually any evidence?

Purity spiral anyone? This guilt by association is harmful and divisive. It’s just a shame that so many are so keen to ignore the amazing things KJK has done but desperate to berate her for what they deem her unacceptable behaviour on a different topic.

Then they bring out the false accusations about ‘flag shaggers’. A disgustingly derogatory term if ever I heard one. But perfectly acceptable in the minds of various PPs.

Namelessnelly · 20/10/2025 12:09

Howseitgoin · 20/10/2025 09:18

"and that the only reliable way to define them is through biology because that's the only thing you can prove."

False. Sex distinctive behaviours aren't figments of the imagination. If they were gender criticals wouldn't need to exclude males from 'private spaces' 'cause violence'…..

But that poster is correct. It doesn’t matter how many times you scold, men are not women and aren’t allowed not allowed in female spaces. I know this upsets you but sometimes the truth hurts.

Abhannmor · 20/10/2025 12:37

MurkyWeather2 · 19/10/2025 14:50

Sorry, I'm genuinely not following your point here.
Hating people for being religious is not racist, though hating anyone for anything is an extreme emotion that requires a serious provocation.
It is not racist to say 'I hate Brits', because 'Brits' is neither a race (no such thing) nor an ethnicity.

We really need a 'laughed my tits off ' emoji at this point .

ILikeDungs · 20/10/2025 12:38

Then they bring out the false accusations about ‘flag shaggers’. A disgustingly derogatory term if ever I heard one. But perfectly acceptable in the minds of various PPs.

I was there and took some photos. Looking back at them, there were several traditionally coloured Union Jacks with Terf Island on the horizontal stripe. There was one or possibly two in the suffragette colours with no text. To me these both are saying: British Women Standing Up For Their Rights.

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