A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

But Sandie Peggie knew him to be male. His inner sense of self does not correspond with the physical reality of his body and women are not obliged to undress to affirm such a lie.

Should Fife have simply put a sign on the door saying "Women, Not Including Transwomen"?

Dr Upton is a person registered male at birth, with physical characteristics that are usually associated with male persons. Being trans means that, despite being registered male at birth, Dr Upton understands/ recognises/ knows herself to be female.
That is what it is to be a trans woman.
It's perfectly possible to be a trans woman and pass a medical degree.

Yes, quite.

It moves at this point from a 'trans' issue to a capacity issue.

If someone does not have the capacity to put the needs of patients first, to be able to be unbiased and equally respectful to all regardless of creed, culture, nationality, politics etc, and is not able to separate their personal reality from objective actual reality, they do not have the capacity to work in public facing services and most especially medicine.

I think Tandora is now more or less arguing that this should all be an expected, accepted capacity issue that is part of identifying as trans, which seems to me to be actually transphobic. I doubt all trans people would agree.

Doctors cannot use non-consenting women patients as opportunities to exercise their validation and identity for their own gratification in the course of 'providing medical care'. Regardless of your personal belief systems, this has to be recognised as 'problematic', surely?

Of course, it's just not possible to be a trans woman and be a woman. And it's not possible to pass a medical degree and not know male from female.

Again - being trans is not "a lie".

But you can't know yourself to be female. It's determined by your biology. That's the point. If I know myself to be an eagle, does that make it so?

I don't follow. Are you saying that he knows his sex to be male, (but he wants to be female, hence he's trans)? That is my understanding of trans, but I'd be surprised if it's yours. It also doesn't seem to be Dr Upton's, since he said he'd present himself if a patient wanted a female doctor.

Or are you saying the opposite, that he "knows" his sex to be female. In which case he should be in a psychiatric ward, and not as a doctor.

A trans woman knows they are a trans woman simply because of the acute psychological pain / torture/ disorientation / dissasociatjon they experience when someone calls them / perceives them as a man. And conversely the complete absence of this when someone calls/ recognises them as a woman- which feels psychologically comfortable/ right/ true/ makes sense. Thats it. Thats how they know

OP, to what degree do you understand that biological women feel extreme distress, pain, confusion, disorientation, when being told that men in dresses are women and that they must address them as such because it is literal violence not to. When these biological women know exactly what literal violence literally is, which is why they don't want men in dresses in their prison cells and running their rape crisis units and doing their gynae exams because they have suffered sexual abuse in the past? And that they feel psychologically comfortable/right/true/in the presence of good sense when people around them call humans with penises men.

A male person is not a female, no matter how much he says he thinks he wants to be one.

People can't change sex.

Anyone who doesn't understand this simple fact shouldn't have passed a medical degree.

Any man who thinks he's changed sex just because he says he thinks he wants to shouldn't be practising medicine.

A valid question for the OP, but the SC judgment is quite clear that the term 'woman' for the purposes of single sex spaces means women. No woman can be a transwoman: the sole necessary requirement to be a transwoman is to be of the male sex.

But you can't know yourself to be female. It's determined by your biology.

Right. This is exactly the issue. You believe this to be impossible - that Dr Upton could be registered male and know/ recognise herself as female. To you this is a logical impossibility (you use language in a circular way to prove it to be so) and yet, this is the reality of trans experience. This is how some people are. It's a naturally occurring form of cognitive difference - a neurodevelopmental difference.

Society functions with reality based laws, quantifiable boundaries and clearly understood words.

A short child might recognise themself to be the same size as their big sister, but if they're below a certain height they don't to go on rides at Alton Towers.

Someone who is registered blind may picture the world inside their head and understand that to be their reality, but they aren't allowed to hold a driving licence.

The highest court in the land has reviewed the evidence and ruled that "woman" does not mean what Dr Upton thinks it does. Dr Upton's thoughts on the matter are not relevant.

A man claiming to be a woman is a liar.

There is such a lack of logic here that I don't believe this can be in good faith.

Really? You work in a nursery and don't know that a second child will often present a complete contrast to an older child in the family in order to get parental attention? I mean, it's Child Development 101

I don't follow. Are you saying that he knows his sex to be male, (but he wants to be female, hence he's trans)? That is my understanding of trans

No that's not what I am saying. That's your understanding of what being trans is - and it is wrong. That is the problem.

Or are you saying the opposite, that he "knows" his sex to be female.

Yes

In which case he should be in a psychiatric ward, and not as a doctor.

Then it is your belief that trans women should be in psychiatric wards and not working as doctors.

@Taztoy that's horrendous.

You don't need to tell me!

It is impossible because he has a male body. It's coded into every cell. Of course, he can "feel like a woman" whatever that means, but he isn't one, and he's not a stupid person; he knows that, otherwise he wouldn't have taken Sandie Peggie to court for transphobia, would he?

Sure, he might have a cognitive difference (there's not strong evidence for this), but that doesn't change his XY chromosomes, does it? It doesn't change his male-sexed body. This is desperate stuff.

I feel the need to state here that I am a social scientist 🤣🤣🤣 of a sort.

So people who don't accept men who feel like they are women as women are... nuts? Stupid? Neurologically underdeveloped?

That's rather a lot of people, you know.

Dr Upton understands/ recognises/ knows herself to be female.

And being trans means that Dr Upton is actually WRONG in this belief. It is inherent in the condition - a man with gender dysphoria is, by definition, factually wrong in believing he is female.

I hear you. I'm so sorry you have these painful reminders every day of your life.

I totally understand what you mean about toilets. I haven't gone through anything like what you have, but I've been sexually assaulted in a public toilet (have also spoke about it on here) and even now I get nervous if I go in a public loo and one or both cubicle doors are closed next to an empty cubicle. But I'm ok if I know it's a woman in there.

Some people just don't get it (or don't want to?)

But equally, some people really do understand.

Women's spaces are for women. Just obey the law.

Then you are suitably qualified to recognise crap social science when you see it😘