A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

There’s no “also”. Upton is (and I suspect is perfectly aware) not a female doctor. “Trans women” are men.

Listen you do you, be as rude as you like.

Moreover why would Dr Upton see your body as a vehicle for his gender expression?

And intend to exercise his right to it to the very last point of requiring you to say no and explain to his face that you will not participate in his seeing himself as a woman. At which point you'll experience the name calling demonstrated above so helpfully by Tandora, who will hope to see you punished for it.

For what? For denying a man the opportunity to make use of your body in a way that gratifies him in whatever way. Even in the face of - and quite possibly with added spice from, lets be honest - your lack of consent and your distress.

Wtf would you have to smoke to think this is morally and ethically ok?

How do we tell the difference between a biological man and a biological man who identifies as not a man?

Also would be good if you could answer my question of do you think women should accept biological men into their single sex spaces?

Those seven words are unnecessary for a patient who may be experiencing distress and pain, and who the whole interaction should be unequivocally centred around. Not the whims of males.

Upton is (and I suspect is perfectly aware) not a female

No Dr Upton is not "aware" that she is "not a female". Quite the opposite in fact. That is the entire problem.

You are struggling to understand the basic principle that not everyone shares the same perspective as you. It's quite extraordinary really.

It’s my opinion that Upton knows he is a biological male because he’s a pretty piss poor medic if he doesn’t. Hope that helps.

And also, considering that trans-identified males apparently so need special treatment, on account of how very sad they are, why would they be upset or offended by being called 'transwomen'. Their entire tragic vulnerability and need for affirmation is based on their transness. And we must all learn about their transness, and their brains, and how upset they are, and how they are the followers of many millenia of trans people. Etc etc. So why are they now upset and offended by a description of the core of their soul that they hold most dear. Are they trans (I thought that was the point of the thread: to explain to us why trans people are so very important), or are they not trans at all (cos, reasons)?

uh-huh- just as I thought.

Ok I have better things to do with my time.

If posters like @MyAmpleSheep want to return to the thread and raise the bar of the conversation a little again, I'll re-engage.

This might shock you, but there are lots of people who don't understand the trans issue or even have it on their radar, not to mention people with learning difficulties and for whom English isn't their first language. Many of them would, reasonably, think that asking for a woman or a female would get them one. But, since they're just vulnerable women, I'm sure you don't care about that.

You know what, it is gradually dawning on me that the nebulosity or solidity of language is based entirely on what the self-identified Righteous deem it to be at any particular moment of their choosing as it suits their current desires. Because language, like the rest of the universe, revolves entirely around What The Righteous Want.

Do you think it’s appropriate to mock the needs of sexual assault survivors then? Taztoy has been very clear why she needs a female doctor, and most people don’t imagine that they need to specify that this won’t include any men.

🎯 it’s all a power trip.

For thousands of years female has meant the type of sexed body that is designed around egg production and gestation (and that's not to say that's all women are good for, or that an infertile woman isn't female, just to head off those ripostes). The majority of people will not define it to include trans women. So are you saying that if one of those women doesn't specifically exclude trans women when they ask for a female clinician, Dr Upton is justified in going ahead and treating them, even though Dr Upton knows perfectly well that they're not including trans women in their definition of female?

Then they're just going to have to be upset and offended, because that is entirely unreasonable.

You cannot and will not ever be able to compel women into all pretending at all times that a man is something that he is in fact not, and abandon everything but indulgence of his wishes.

THANK YOU!! 👏

I made a similar point upthread. Why do these women not matter to people like Tandora?

If posters like want to return to the thread and raise the bar of the conversation a little again, I'll re-engage.

Well, that's not male-coded behaviour at all. No siree😂

The OP is a doing sterling work as a representative Paragon of The Right Side of History. If the OP didn't exist, we couldn't have done better if we'd created a parody.

#OerationLetThemSpeak

The problem with your logic is here:

"even though Dr Upton knows perfectly well that they're not including trans women in their definition of female?"

She doesn't "know [this] perfectly well". She doesn't know this at all.
That is the entire problem. I know you can't see this. You can't accept it. But it is the reality of the people and the world that you are living in.

You are struggling to understand the basic principle that not everyone shares the same perspective as you. It's quite extraordinary really.

Never a truer word spoken, @Tandora

Sorry if I missed it, but did you clarify in a conflict of needs, whether the male’s wishes ot the woman’s wishes should be prioritised?

Well, if Dr Uptin doesn't know that he's male, not female, I don't think he should be working as a doctor at all.

Well we can agree that the problem is Dr Upton's stupidity then

It’s a mystery

Tbh https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3 is a much better thread