A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

I don't believe that. Dr Upton knows that their body is that if a male, and lived the majority of their life so far as a man. They know perfectly well that most people will not regard them as female.

No, Dr Upton is not stupid - she is trans.

The problem is that you don't understand , and can't accept, what it means to be trans.

Exactly. Just like he knew Sandie Peggie regarded him as a male.

According to the last census there are far more people in this country who have a learning disability or for whom English is not their first language than there are trans-identifying people.

These are the people disadvantaged when you start pretending that long-established everyday words like "woman" and "female" are in some kind of linguistic dispute. These people don't have celebrities wearing t-shirts in support of them though, or special flags, or entire months of parades.

We've been told we are too narrow-minded to understand the trans experience. Well, Tandora, I challenge you to do some volunteering with those with severe disabilities and see how helpful it is to start fucking around with basic, clearly understood language.

They know perfectly well that most people will not regard them as female.

They don't know that, nor do you, and nor do I.
None of us have any idea how "most people" regard Dr Upton.

I was under the impression that saying “I want a female doctor - but not a trans woman: a biologically female doctor” would mark the patient as a bigot to somebody like you.

Any medical professional should surely understand what is implied by the request for a female doctor. If need be, maybe the doctor could have a little rummage around her penis and testicles to remind herself that she should keep her dick a respectful distance away from a woman who has made a clearly expressed request for single-sex provision.

I’d expect somebody so focused on safety, dignity, and privacy to have a very deep understanding of the reasons a request like this might be made. Weird that the most marginalised, most oppressed group so often don’t seem to understand (or care) about the dignity of others unless it’s spelled out in terms that allow them to make it about them/take offence, isn’t it?

Have you ever seen him in the flesh? I’ve seen him in court. And everyone would know his sex.

When a women requests a women HCP, she can say 'female', 'woman', 'lady', basically any word she understands to get the message across.

The NHS cannot presume that someone requesting a medical appointment has the first clue about the bonkers rules around trans ideology.

If someone doesnt say 'female', or doesnt explicitly say not a man in a dress, the NHS cannot assume shes happy to be treated by a transvestite man.

Its trans people fault if they are offended by this, if it upset them and their allies, because its their delusions that have lead to this.

Its part of a long line of delusions. They think their inner feelings are more important than anyone elses, that other people exist to make them happy, that they can change the meaning of words, or expect others to listen to half baked rambling theories that change constantly anyway.

@Tandora
few people would doubt that ASD is real, and that for most individuals it is a persistent condition, underpinned by complex and durable neurological differences that cannot easily be 'cured'. The same is true for being trans.

Interesting comparison of gender dysphoria to autism.

First - it is not proven that gender dysphoria is a neurological difference like autism, as opposed to a mental illness.
Neither can be cured - but the difference is that whilst autism will never be 'curable', because it is not an illness, dysphoria may one day be curable (if it is an illness).

Second - the more interesting part of the analogy is the requirement of the rest of society to make accommodations.
Few would argue that we should not make any accommodations to enable autistic people to take part in society. But these accommodations don't require half of society to be seriously disadvantaged.
Simple accommodations are fine - men can wear dresses and autistic people can wear headphones in the office.

If an autistic person insisted that all cinemas had to show all films with the lights up, the sound right down, and subtitles on the screen, they would be laughed at and ignored. If they persisted in their insistence, they would be told to seek out one of the 'autism friendly' screenings that many cinemas now offer.

Men with gender dysphoria who want to use women's toilets are like the autistic person insisting ALL film showings should be adapted to suit autism. The men with dysphoria should just go to the facilities meant for them (in this analogy, the fully enclosed unisex toilet is like the special autism screening).

And if an autistic person who doesn't like loud noise wants to go to a big rock concert but with the sound turned down, well tough, they can't. Likewise, many life experiences are just for biological females, not men with dysphoria.

I'm sorry, which version of 'being trans' do you want me to accept? There are so many. How about this one from a peer-reviewed paper:
"I argue for the possibility of reading the puppygirl style as a critical practice: one that hints at ways of being trans that do not rely on the ciscentric understanding of 'the human' as their point of reference."

A trans woman knows they are a trans woman simply because of the acute psychological pain / torture/ disorientation / dissasociatjon they experience...

You are spot on.
They are feeling these things because they are a transwoman. Not because they are female.

But this still doesn't explain why I can't understand what it's like to be trans but a male can understand what it's like to be female. Why for thee but not for me?

Oh I’m quite sure this poster is aware that saying “I don’t want a “trans woman” doctor would be perceived as “transphobia” by Upton and many of the idiots at NHS Fife rather than simply a request for a female doctor.

I know - bar was already low in terms of the consideration given to women and trauma sufferers, but by adding mockery to patronising, Tan has just managed to limbo under it.

First instinct is to say FOTTFSOFAWYGTFOSM 😡but on reflection, Tan is doing a sterling job of showing the lurkers exactly why women need single sex spaces and exactly how awful and callous the TRA attitude is.

So... Thanks, I guess?

If Dr Upton does not know this, DU should not be practicing medicine.

DU may not believe it but DU should know that the average person will view DU as a man. If DU is unable to grasp this, DU is dangerous and not fit to practice.

You want all of us to understand DU's POV, why don't you expect DU to understand other people's POV?

Understanding patients is an important part of DU's job but apparently, the patients are the ones who have to see DU's POV, even if they are in pain, distracted, have limited English, know nothing about trans, may have limited intelligence or have ASD, schizophrenia, or some other disability/condition that makes it impossible to have a theory of mind.

Oh yes that sounds like the brand of academia we’re dealing with on this thread.

Agree 👆

I agree.

So you support the loss of any word at all with which the class of humans susceptible to pregnancy, FGM and house-arrest in Afghanistan may describe themselves - and all on the basis of how trans-identifying males ‚see themselves‘ and the words they prefer to use?

Either you’re not posting in good faith or, if you are, I find your views genuinely frightening. The double standards you’re exhibiting in whose perception and language you choose to accept, and whose you reject, are breathtaking. The age-old misogynist conviction that woman is what man says she is.

Yes, this is indeed a ‘terrible and unspeakable (did you mean to pun there? I’m mean, you are literally arguing for making the burden of sexism unspeakable!) burden’ that women have carried for centuries - in large part because of the complicity of confused and fearful female quislings.

It is very odd that delusional men suffering from Body Anxiety Disorder (BAD) (because it is only the men who are being demanding in this way) are being seen as more important than all other humans.

x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755

..............who know not the darnedest thing about which they speak and have precisely zero insight into what being trans is.

Neither do you @Tandora

I have a responsibility to challenge that.
Why?
Surely you should be challenging the men who wish to invade women's safe spaces, not arguing that they belong there because they're "feeling a bit sad".

In any case, TIM are not sad.
Let's be thoroughly realistic.
They're angry.
They're enraged.
They're furious.

They want to come in, and they've been told they can't, because they're biological males. That doesn't sadden them. It makes them hopping mad.

Well, better rude than a predator, predator enabler or liar. But your way sounds way ruder to me. So, since we accept that women can exclude transwomen from some spaces, and it's just about how we say it, then this presumably means we can have women only changing rooms, but we must mark them "Women except transwomen" on the door. Or women's sports, but marked as women's sports, no transwomen. Or a lesbian event but the posters state "Lesbians, no transbians".

That sounds less offensive to you?

So long, and thanks for all the insight

It's not unreasonable to assume that the majority of people will understand female to mean what it has meant for the last x thousand years, as opposed to what a very small minority have chosen to try to change it to in the last 10 or 15.

So we don't understand Dr Upton, because he's trans. But he's actually a female. A biological one no less. So he's not trans anything. He is an actual female. And also he would be very offended and upset to be called trans. Even though the person telling us this is calling him trans.

Oh come on. You're saying that a man, who has always been a man (until five minutes ago), looks like a man, and is known by everyone else to be a man, is not actually aware that he is not female. Despite being, you know, an actual qualified doctor. If he doesn't know he's not female he shouldn't have passed his degree.