A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

This. I would be making a complaint and citing FWS v Scottish Ministers.

He would, yes.

But you're suggesting words that mean transwomen aren't women, and aren't female, and that it's ok to make the distinction and sometimes to exclude them because they aren't female or women. After all, if Upton is a biological female woman, then on what grounds can he be excluded from female care?

That's very transphobic. Especially since, if it's ok for one woman to exclude transwomen from her intimate space because they do not count as women or female for that context, it must also be ok to create larger intimate spaces that exclude transwomen for the same reason.

It's perfectly clear.

It's certainly not up to me how you communicate your wishes. You are free to be as rude, offensive and hurtful as you like.

I am free to point out that your words are rude, offensive, hurtful and unnecessary.

Anyway, as I said engaging with you is playing in the mud. Not the aim of this thread.

"Actual woman" is one option.

"Woman of the sex classed that birthed literally every fucking person who has ever been born" might be another.

I am free to clarify that a man who identifies as a woman is not to treat me, along with all other male doctors, yes.

Yes.

I would be deeply upset if I asked for a female clinician and someone like Dr Upton (who we are told is biologically female) attended.

Dr Upton would be deeply upset that I was deeply upset that I did not perceive Dr Upton to be biologically female and Dr Upton would feel that as a biological female Dr Upton met the definition of “female” when I had requested a female clinician.

Why does Dr Upton get to attend in those circumstances when Dr Upton is not a biological female?

Transgender ideology is the only mental illness where we're all expected to indulge the person suffering the illness' delusions. The sooner we stop, the better.

I was anorexic for 3 years, thank fuck no one told me I WAS fat and needed to starve myself. I'd be dead. The distress is real but the solution is truth and support, not access to women's spaces.

I am loath to be dragged down into rudeness, but this is just getting sillier and sillier: so now the OP is suggesting that if someone wants a female doctor, they should ask for a 'female doctor' and then specify that they aren't comfortable with a 'transwoman'.
But apparently no one knows what 'female' really means and trans identified males like Dr Upton are actually biological females, therefore presumably not 'transwomen' (a transwoman being someone of the male sex who considers themself of a female gender).
So if a male is actually a biological female, what is a 'transwoman'? There's no need for transing at all is there.

They are male, though.

What's the difference between "a male, like a transwoman" and "a person who isn't female, like a transwoman"?

Are we narrowing down a list of words that do have a definition? "Upsetting" "offensive" "obscene" "clear" "rude" "unnecessary" "hurtful" "mud" seem to be solid.

Dr Upton expressed that he would in fact feel free to attend in those circumstances, because he believes himself to meet the criteria of “biological female”.

Dr Upton doesn't "get to attend". You have the right to request she doesn't attend to you.

The question was 'how can I make it clear I don't want Dr. Upton to attend'. I suggested language to do so that would be clear.
Another poster said she wouldn't use that language, she would use alternative language. i pointed out that her alternative language would be received by many as unnecessary and offensive.

That was my understanding too.

@Tandora can you clarify if you think Dr Upton would qualify to attend in the circumstances where I asked for a female clinician?

This entire thread is nothing more than social science theorising by the OP in their comfortable, unthreatening academic/research bubble.

The OP clearly has little experience of working with women in the real world. I'm talking about the tough, difficult, often unpleasant real world.

Why should anyone have to tell Upton to his face that they don’t want him when it should have been communicated by the word “female”?

I would say

I wish to be attended by a female doctor.

If I asked that, would you think it was appropriate for Dr Upton to attend me?

Amen

“A little piece of insight” indeed.

I listened to that Tribunal hearing and as far as I am concerned I heard a man say he would completely ignore the boundaries of women, ignore their lack of consent, and sexually assault them if the touching of sexual organs was necessary as part of the examination.

And there, right there, we see the damage I’d argue your perspective is doing to these very people you seek to protect.

Your every post is contributing to a collective sense of uncertainty and mistrust about language and trans individuals in a public health context that didn‘t ever need to exist. This isn’t the result of sudden, vicious prejudice ballooning from nowhere, but rather of your own systematic deconstruction of the words and social contracts that previously protected women‘s interests.

In shining a spotlight on trans people’s needs to the exclusion of all else, you’re driving the women left in the dark (both in the sense of utter confusion and feeling wholly unacknowledged!) to focus on and resist this exclusive (SO not inclusive) focus - when they’d really actually rather not be forced into doing this!

If you ask for a 'female' doctor, Dr Upton would interpret herself as being eligible to treat you as she understands herself to be female.

If you ask for a 'female' doctor, and also specify that you are not comfortable with a trans woman, Dr Upton would understand your meaning and she would recognise that she was not eligible to treat you.

I understand that would involve the inclusion of an extra sentence - maybe seven? - more words. No doubt this is a terrible and unspeakable burden for you.

If a man is going to be offended that I don't want him because he's a man, what difference does it make if I add an extra 20 redundant words (that's unnecessary!) to make the same request?

And why as a patient is that my problem?

Yep.

Does "seven" have a meaning? Asking for a friend.