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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A little piece of insight

1000 replies

Tandora · 02/10/2025 13:48

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

A little piece of insight
OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:41

So @Tandora in a situation where there are single sex toilets.

I have trauma.

The trans person has trauma.

The law says that the trans person must not go into the toilet of the gender which they identify with because sex and gender are not the same.

What should that trans person do?

These are the practicalities that need to be discussed.

I don’t want a man in a space where it is legally designated as a female single sex space.

And the law agrees with me.

So are the trans people going to crowd fund and campaign to change the law?

Greyskybluesky · 03/10/2025 13:41

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:36

There are all kinds of words you could use.

I think the best way - which would enable everyone to understand, and would avoid any doubt at all, would be to request a female doctor, and specify that you would like to be clear that this does not include/ you will not accept/ are not comfortable with being seen by a doctor who is a trans woman.

It's just not realistic though, is it? Perhaps this is how it works in your world. It's not how it works in mine.

Women with limited English, learning difficulties. Women who are ill and perhaps confused? Elderly women like my gran who just don't grasp the concept of a "transwoman". If they say woman or female, they mean woman or female.

Why should they have to specify no men?

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:40

Personally, I’d say that I don’t want “a male doctor, of any kind, obviously including those men who call themselves “trans women”. Much clearer and easier to understand I think.

You could say that for sure.

I think the meaning would be very clear.

A lot of people would find it deeply upsetting and offensive.

OP posts:
ThatCyanCat · 03/10/2025 13:42

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:36

There are all kinds of words you could use.

I think the best way - which would enable everyone to understand, and would avoid any doubt at all, would be to request a female doctor, and specify that you would like to be clear that this does not include/ you will not accept/ are not comfortable with being seen by a doctor who is a trans woman.

But that's transphobic. It means that there's a class of female that doesn't include transwomen and it others them. It excludes them from a female sphere.

Why would you do that?

Kucinghitam · 03/10/2025 13:42

We could replace all the OP's posts with C&P from Jabberwocky and they would make more sense and have greater consistency in comprehensibility.

ArabellaSaurus · 03/10/2025 13:42

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:42

You could say that for sure.

I think the meaning would be very clear.

A lot of people would find it deeply upsetting and offensive.

So if the choice is upsetting and offending women, or upsetting and offending transwomen, you side with the latter. Why is that?

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:42

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:42

You could say that for sure.

I think the meaning would be very clear.

A lot of people would find it deeply upsetting and offensive.

I would find it deeply upsetting and offensive to have a trans woman doctor turn up when I asked for a female.

Again, whose trauma matters?

ThatCyanCat · 03/10/2025 13:43

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:42

You could say that for sure.

I think the meaning would be very clear.

A lot of people would find it deeply upsetting and offensive.

Any man who gets upset and offended that he can't have at an unconsenting female patient has no business practising medicine.

LorrieTosh · 03/10/2025 13:43

CautiousLurker01 · 03/10/2025 13:09

@LorrieTosh I suspect it does.

Tan never responds to my posts because a) I never affirmed my DD when she Trans IDd (I am a transphobic bigot, therefore, I am sure) and b) my DD eventually came to the understanding that as she was autistic, gay, anxious and massively impacted by Covid/Lockdown that her belief that she was trans was erroneous and has consequently desisted. She is still a masc presenting, gender non-conforming in her dress style but she knows she is a young woman.

Her amazing therapist (ex Tavistock so knows a load more than many posters here) has worked with her for several years to help her unpick her negative feelings around being a woman/female in society as it is today, how being gay and autistic create barriers to the way she feels the world sees her, and how she functions in that world.

Unlike a friend of hers (DD of a friend of mine) who had a double mastectomy at 19 and has simply gone on to continue to attempt suicide and have further spells as a psychiatric inpatient, living in sheltered housing, choosing to alienate a family that loves her for all it’s flaws, on benefits and failing to graduate from the prestigious drama school she attended - ie the T and the surgery didn’t ‘cure’ her. In fact, it’s just fucked her over even more. She’s a woman/trans man, though, so clearly isn’t as important as Tan’s ‘trans women’, AKA men. Her lived experience doesn’t matter either. Only Tan’s perception of what her trans women’s lived experience matters, it seems.

Affirmation is a crock. And a fucking dangerous one at that.

Your daughter is lucky to have you as a mum, and I’m so sorry to hear about your friend’s daughter. It’s an absolute tragedy that this “be kind-ism” has created a situation where people who care and have a child’s best interests at heart, automatically become the bad guys if they don’t immediately go along with something they can see will be harmful.

We had a similar situation with my friend’s daughter -my friend asked me to speak to her because she knew I’d been through something similar. Like your daughter, she held off taking action, realised she was gay, was diagnosed autistic soon afterwards, and was so relieved she’d had people step in and stop her from going down a path she would have regretted. She’d been so sure she wanted surgery asap; it’s frightening to realise different parents might have facilitated it for her.

Affirmation is absolutely a dangerous crock, I couldn’t agree more.

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:46

ThatCyanCat · 03/10/2025 13:42

But that's transphobic. It means that there's a class of female that doesn't include transwomen and it others them. It excludes them from a female sphere.

Why would you do that?

You said you wanted words that made it clear that you wanted to be seen by a female doctor - not including trans women.

I provided you with those words; it's very easy to describe that preference in words.

OP posts:
EuclidianGeometryFan · 03/10/2025 13:46

ByTaupeSnake · 02/10/2025 17:57

If the distress goes away isn’t that the definition of a cure?

That is like saying if I take some Sudafed and my nose unblocks, I no longer have cold viruses in my system.

Or that if I have a wheelchair, my legs are cured. (The wheelchair in this analogy is all the people who have to pretend that they don't see what actual sex the sufferer is, and indeed who say that it is possible to change sex.)

Masking symptoms is not a cure.

Namelessnelly · 03/10/2025 13:46

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:29

I didn't say your 'trauma' was a logical fallacy. Your question is a straw man/ logical fallacy because in order to answer it I have to accept your premise that distress is a 'competition', (one person's trauma 'trumps' the other) and that there is a conflict here (between resolving your distress and resolving the distress of a trans person). I don't accept either of these premises are reasonable or have a foundation in reality.

So if a woman is distressed by sharing a female space with a man, and the man is distressed if he can’t use that space, who should be allowed to use that space? It’s an easy question.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:46

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:42

You could say that for sure.

I think the meaning would be very clear.

A lot of people would find it deeply upsetting and offensive.

Given that I would find being treated by a man when I requested a woman more upsetting and offensive, I guess that’s too bad. Sad times.

JamieCannister · 03/10/2025 13:47

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:03

From your description here it doesn't sound like you had an experience that I would describe as being transgender, no.

As for you broader concerns - they are valid. There are developmental complexities involved in diagnosing all types of conditions.

Autism is a useful comparator - you may find this study on the persistence of autism spectrum disorder from early childhood interesting: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37782510/

Despite the findings in studies such as these, few people would doubt that ASD is real, and that for most individuals it is a persistent condition, underpinned by complex and durable neurological differences that cannot easily be 'cured'. The same is true for being trans. The existence of some people with transient experiences of dysphoria, or people who 'de-transition' does not refute the reality or durability of trans experience in many others.

My definition of trans was wrong earlier.

A trans person is a man or woman who claims they are trans, less those violent criminals and sex offenders who real trans people can confirm are not trans, and also less those people who will go onto detransition because they were never trans to start with.

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:47

ThatCyanCat · 03/10/2025 13:43

Any man who gets upset and offended that he can't have at an unconsenting female patient has no business practising medicine.

Um nice try. What would be deeply upsetting and offensive is the use of these words:

"a male doctor, of any kind, obviously including those men who call themselves “trans women”."

OP posts:
Greyskybluesky · 03/10/2025 13:48

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:46

You said you wanted words that made it clear that you wanted to be seen by a female doctor - not including trans women.

I provided you with those words; it's very easy to describe that preference in words.

Not everyone is familiar with the word or meaning of "trans women" Tandora. I've listed some examples above.

Why do these women matter less?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:48

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:46

You said you wanted words that made it clear that you wanted to be seen by a female doctor - not including trans women.

I provided you with those words; it's very easy to describe that preference in words.

It’s not clear enough. Upton thinks he is a female doctor so might answer the call. “Trans women” could mean a woman who identifies as a man to the uninitiated appointment maker.

Namelessnelly · 03/10/2025 13:48

ArabellaSaurus · 03/10/2025 13:42

So if the choice is upsetting and offending women, or upsetting and offending transwomen, you side with the latter. Why is that?

Yes @Tandora plwae explain why it’s ok to have a woman distressed at having to share spaces with a men, but it’s not ok for a women to upset that men by saying no? Why in your opinion is the man’s feelings and wishes more important?

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:46

Given that I would find being treated by a man when I requested a woman more upsetting and offensive, I guess that’s too bad. Sad times.

But there are ways you can avoid that eventuality without being offensive. So there is no need for anyone to be upset or offended.

Anyway I don't know why I'm engaging with you it's silly.

OP posts:
Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:48

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:47

Um nice try. What would be deeply upsetting and offensive is the use of these words:

"a male doctor, of any kind, obviously including those men who call themselves “trans women”."

So I would be deeply offended and upset if a trans woman came to treat me when I asked for a female doctor.

and the doctor would be deeply offended and upset that I was deeply offended and upset?

what right would the trans woman have to treat me in the circumstance where I asked for a female clinician?

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:48

It’s not clear enough. Upton thinks he is a female doctor so might answer the call. “Trans women” could mean a woman who identifies as a man to the uninitiated appointment maker.

It's clear. Upton would understand exactly what you meant. If she chose to attend to you anyway she would be crossing a boundary.

OP posts:
BaseDrops · 03/10/2025 13:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:40

Personally, I’d say that I don’t want “a male doctor, of any kind, obviously including those men who call themselves “trans women”. Much clearer and easier to understand I think.

If I ask a medical professional for a female medical professional and they send a male of any variety what happens after that is entirely the responsibility of the person who ignored biological facts and included a male in the female category.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:50

It’s not clear, and it’s not up to you how I communicate my wishes 🤷‍♀️

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 03/10/2025 13:50

I think the best way - which would enable everyone to understand, and would avoid any doubt at all, would be to request a female doctor, and specify that you would like to be clear that this does not include/ you will not accept/ are not comfortable with being seen by a doctor who is a trans woman.

This is the narcissism of trans.

They have to control everyones language, make everyone think about them at all times. They have to be the centre of everyone else's world.

Its madness that anyone has to think about men who want to be woman at all, let alone when booking a medical appointment.

Trans people, and their allies will have to be honest with themselves. They know as well as everyone else its not about anything other than a need to be centre stage, and its not getting that that causes them to be upset.

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