A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

I would agree MyAmpleSheep, except that Tandora HAS been on many threads where such things are discussed.

The issue might lie in that often, when such things are mentioned on threads, tandora usually says that the person is not transgender. Because tandora has a very set definition of who is and isn't transgender and arbitrates who is and isn't transgender regardless of that person who has claimed to be transgender's own views.

If you were talking about a poster who did not have that extensive history on MN interacting with many of us for years, I would have agreed it may not be unreasonable.

But he is not female so he might as well say "I'm a tiger, and I'm biological, therefore I am a biological tiger". Or to take it oen step further (one extra lie added) he might as well say "I'm an attack helicopter, and I'm mechanical, so I'm a mechanical attack helicopter"

Dr Upton is an adult male person, otherwise known as a man. 'Female' is a biological category, not an identity.

As there is never a response to any question raised, I will take a leaf out of OP's book and keep repeating the point: none of the OP's arguments are relevant in the slightest as to whether males should be given access to female sex-based rights and spaces.
It doesn't matter whether they have a 'cognitive difference' instead of a 'feeling' or whether there's a 'biological underpinning' for trans. Males are not female.
If they don't want to be with other males, they can argue for third spaces. They have the confidence, entitlement, money and power to do this. Go and do it. Keep away from female rights.

Funny how the biological differences between women and men who say they're women are exactly the same as the biological differences between women and men who don't say they're women.

They're all men, and that's the only thing that matters. Sex segregation is - shock - based on sex. Women especially need some spaces and facilities to remain strictly female-only. All the rest is just noise.

That said, I would be interested in a coherent explanation of "transness". I held out hope briefly that Tandora would be able to provide it. But no. Silly me for hoping.

Oh, and @Tandora Tandora, your claim that trans might have a biological cause/component, isn't quite what you think it is when you consider that schizophrenia also has a significant biological basis. So, again, how is it any different to mental illness?

Yeah, no.

not used to criticise those of us who see it as yet another bit of evidence of the irrationality of the TRA community

The idea that people are claiming this is actually a "gender critical" construction. So, yes, my critique is directed at the right place.

They absolutely are

The only evidence you've provided of this is a quote by Dr Upton which doesn't show this at all.

As I said - this is a misunderstanding based on a linguistic dispute about the appropriate boundaries and application of the words "woman", "female" and "biological woman" etc. There is no dispute that trans women's bodies have biological differences to cis women's bodies.

For long suffering lurkers out there: Tandora claims to be a scientist working in the field of gender biology. I will leave it to you to decide what kind of scientist describes mawkish emotive internet memes as "insightful".

"Transgender people" = the men and women who make the meaningless claim that they are transgender, less those people who real transgender people say are not transgender because they have committed the most horrific violent or sexual crimes that reflect appallingly on the community of men and women making the meaningless claim that they are transgender.

Don't forget India Willoughby, who really does seem to think he's changed sex, too. Visit ay trans space online, and you'll find tons of examples, of transwomen who claim they have literally changed sex.

Tandora has also claimed that biology and reality are matters of opinion.

You can call it a mental illness if you want. In the same way you could call autism a mental illness if you want. Or indeed homosexuality (as people used to).

Personally I find this type of labelling/ conceptualisation unhelpful and stigmatising, but ultimately it is just a label.

We need to move away from arguments about labels. The point is -

what is this condition? How does it affect people? What can be done about it? And how should/ can we reasonably organise society to accommodate people who are different in this type of way/ have this type of attribute?

I have claimed to be a scientist - as I am. I have never claimed to be "working in the field of gender biology". Lol.

Tandora only engages with points they choose to. Never the difficult stuff like 'what is a woman?', 'how do you legislate?', 'we need to discuss fetishism and sex offending', 'what if it is a mental illness?' and 'cultlike behaviour has a worrying trend of turning violent and tras are replicating that pattern which should give cause for concern - why aren't we taking these threats more seriously?'.

I genuinely don't know how you can call good faith at this point given the threads Tandora HAS engaged with...

And how should/ can we reasonably organise society to accommodate people who are different in this type of way/ have this type of attribute?

UK society has answered that. Same rights as everyone else, but no more

What's stigmatising about being mentally ill? I have a schizophrenic relative - I don't think mental illness is a dirty word.

I'm all for helping people alleviate their distress, but the problem is, you think we should do that by lying about reality, affirming delusions, and allowing males into female spaces and sports (seemingly not being concerned about the distress that will cause many of them). That's never going to be something most people will accept.

The “biological differences” are because women are women and the men you call “trans women” are simply men.

You're still male Tandora. Affirming trans ideation in children is deeply dangerous. It leads to more mental distress as the child's life becomes about trying to get everyone to affirm something that can never be true. Trying to manage their 'dysphoria' by avoiding being in situations where their natal sex is important. Trans Reddit is available for all to read. We've seen men rejoicing when someone calls them 'pretty' and sobbing when they get told they can't use the women's toilets at work. It is not a healthy way to live your life. Depending on outside affirmation for your inner identity will never lead to happiness. Leading children into this state of mental trauma by telling them they've been born in the wrong body is vile. Trans is a mental health problem as your op clearly shows.

what is this condition?

autogynephilia, transvestic fetishism or a symptom of a variety of underlying mental health co-morbidities. In some cases nothing more than a disguise for predators.

How does it affect people?

It massively affects women when men enter their spaces due to autogynephilia, transvestic fetishism or a symptom of a variety of underlying mental health co-morbidities.

What can be done about it?

Mental health treatment for mental illness. Shaming and criminal sanctions for people who take their paraphilias into public spaces where non-consenting adults and children might end up playing a role in their perversion.

And how should/ can we reasonably organise society to accommodate people who are different in this type of way/ have this type of attribute?

Why should we organise society to accommodate people who refuse mental health support for their mental health issue, or who take their paraphilia public and force non-consenting strqngers to play along?

What's stigmatising about being mentally ill? I have a schizophrenic relative - I don't think mental illness is a dirty word.

You don't think mental illness is stigmatised?

Do you think it was stigmatising to frame same sex attraction as a mental illness? Do you think it's stigmatising to frame ASD as a mental illness?

I'm all for helping people alleviate their distress, but the problem is, you think we should do that by lying about reality, affirming delusions,

Nope. No one is lying about reality or affirming delusions - this is your misunderstanding and projection. Actually, what we are doing is acknowledging the reality of trans experience. Because trans experience is real.

and allowing males into female spaces and sports (seemingly not being concerned about the distress that will cause many of them).

This is too general - the conversation can only be held at a much more nuanced level - which spaces? In what circumstances? How should we better organised sports to ensure fairness but also inclusion, etc.

It is literally impossible to argue a TRA position in good faith. At the bare minimum it involves redefining words to mean something different to the long established meaning everyone else is using.

This.
And ignoring inconvenient truths.

Exactly

this is a misunderstanding based on a linguistic dispute about the appropriate boundaries and application of the words "woman", "female" and "biological woman" etc.

That is hardly going to swing the YouGov polling in the TRAs favour

You're still male Tandora.

I didn't read past this. I shouldn't need to keep saying this as it's completely irrelevant , but it bothers me profoundly to be called male.

I am not male.

I am not transgender.

I am a cisgender women who has birthed multiple children.