A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

He had never considered how women might feel about his presence in a women's facility.

Most trans identifying people who express an opinion appear to claim that any such differences are some combination of:

-on a spectrum
-simply a matter of hormones
-too complicated for simple folk to understand
-don’t really exist
-are irrelevant

none of which is true.

if you want the poster child example, consider Dr. Upton with his “I’m female, and I’m biological, therefore I’m a biological female”.

It is of primary importance to that community that any words used to describe such differences need to be redefined to make that task impossible. Even today I’m reading about objections to the use of the word “biological women” because it’s “meaningless”. The purpose of doing so is to make it impossible for such differences to be recognized because they cannot be described in language. Ergo they do not exist.

It is so bizarre. Why on earth do these men continue to believe their rights trump everyone else’s? Despite the law now being crystal clear on the matter?

Men always think that their rights matter more than women's rights do.
It was ever thus.

It looks like mental illness to me.

It looks like men just being men to me.

Ther is no one consistent definition or feeling about what it means to adopt a trans identity. But even should there be it would be irrelevent. People who feel that way should campaign for discrete services and facilities that meet their requirements for dignity and safety, not assume that their feelings over-ride common sense reality and the rights and feelings of other groups.

Clearly, may of these men have absolutely no idea, or concern, for how women and girls might feel...or what it is like for them

I get this. My thinking is fully-enclosed spaces, with basin etc., which should suffice for the numbers there are, without impinging on extant accessible toilets.

One challenge with this, of course, is that trans people worry it may be outing to use, but I actually think it could be beneficial for a wide range of people (eg. those with an extreme case of "shy bladder", who simply can't use public toilets, or someone needing to change their clothes in a private space, or a mother wrangling three toddlers). If there was a collective understanding - a social contract - that this space is for the small minority who genuinely need it due to an actual inability to use the shared space, it could be of real benefit to everyone, without it feeling outing for trans individuals.

I'm also aware that the other main difficulty is that such enclosed spaces are less safe, thanks to KeepToiletsSingleSex (or similar?)'s posts, but this could be accepted and mitigated with a pull-cord, as it is in disabled spaces.

This is true myamplesheep. Upton was very clear in his testimony that he is female.

I believe tandora has been on threads discussing the NHS Fife case.

'Trans' is a post modernistic term used to describe people who for whatever reason want to present or even be thought of as the opposite sex. They may go as far as having surgery. That is it!

Side note:
The funny thing is, a few years ago, some researcher claimed to be on the verge of publishing a diagnostic test for "transness" and was dissuaded from doing so by TRAs because everybody who says they are trans should be accepted as trans.

Contemporary trans ideology has a direct line of descent that can be traced to post modernistic concepts of the self and to 'Queer Theory'.

I do not think Tandora has a clear or accurate idea of the position of the TRA community. If Tandora is arguing in good faith, he or she has not taken a good hard look at the people on the other side of the debate to us and the arguments they advance, without which our stridency may appear unreasonable. From my perpspective at least, it is not unreasonable.

Bleeding Nora is Trandora still here repeating the same tired arguments they have for years? What are you trying to do Tan, bore us into submission??

the answer is still no

no no no no

nooooooooo

no

Even though there are many, many thousands of detransitioners who can testify to their 'trans journey' and how they came out the other side.

(1) If people need indivual cubicles with sinks - completely impractical in most places due to a lack of space - then the way to do it safely would be in separate single sex spaces with individual cubicles. We'd still need four spaces (plus the disabled).

(2) Why on earth should their be basic, bog standard toilets for "normies" whilst trans people (and anyone else who claims to require it) gets special luxury toilets?

(3) How reliable is the response time for pull cords? Fitting them is one thing, having people respond is quite another (I am remembering reading something in the last day or two - maybe reddit - where someone was moaning that one person serving and making coffee in costa meant no ability to maintain hygene and customer service standards, I can;t see how they;d find the time to respond to a pulled cord as well).

Yup.
The Terven know more about gender identity ideology and its adherents than the TRAs.

None of these things mean that people are claiming there are no biological differences between transgender women and cisgender women.

This is not a serious claim - as I said if this were true it would make the need for hormones/ other medical interventions obsolete.

People aren't denying actual biological sexual differences or saying we should acknowledge or talk about them - it is important for everyone that we can do this.

It's a dispute about how the linguistic descriptor "biological woman" should be used, what it means, how precise (or not) it is, and who it should apply to.

I understand Dr Upton's logic entirely: “I’m female, and I’m biological, therefore I’m a biological female”. What she is trying to say is that to insist she is not a "biological female", is to imply that who she is isn't real or natural or grounded in biology. It's not to say that there are no biological differences between her body and yours.

Interesting. Well I guess that is what happens if you allow your 'community' to be hijacked by men with sexual fetishes.

Bingo.

Your explanation leaves a lot to be desired though. There are people who experience intense psychological pain because they believe they're Jesus or Napoleon or married ot a celebrity they've never met. It's called mental illness. What makes trans people different from these individuals?

@Tandora : "People aren't denying actual biological sexual differences or saying we should acknowledge or talk about them"

They are!!!
How can you not know this??

No!

It is a post modernistic term used to describe people who for whatever reason CLAIM TO want to present or even be thought of as the opposite sex.

We have no idea of the honesty of their claim. They may not want to dress as women, but they might feel they need to as the only way of accessing vulnerable women in a state of undress. They may be getting off on the discomfort of women, which would mean less of a buzz if they became the first trans person in history to pass completely. More likely than both is the situation where they have suffered trauma, have multiple ental health co-morbidities and the end result is "being trans" even though what they want is to be mentally healthy and happy and being trans is not going to give them that, because it ignores their underlying issues.

@Tandora any chance of any answer? I’m still here.

The world does not revolve around an individual's feelings about themselves. Not mine. Not yours. Not anyone's.

There are some basic organisational categories on Planet Earth and within the human race. Sex is one of the most fundamental. Individuals within each category can vary to a great degree from each other in many ways....and the only unifying factor or commonality is the fact of their biological sex. That's it. Feelings and self perception are irrelevent.

This is not a serious claim - as I said if this were true it would make the need for hormones/ other medical interventions obsolete

It is a claim often made, and your appeal to calm logic to assert that it is not - that it cannot be - a “serious” claim should properly be put to those who claim it, and not used to criticise those of us who see it as yet another bit of evidence of the irrationality of the TRA community.

People aren't denying actual biological sexual differences or saying we should acknowledge or talk about them

They absolutely are. All day long.

Ok, so basically you're hijacking language to weasel out of the fact that men aren't women and try to make it impossible to articulate why women need single sex spaces or to define what those spaces are for.

This country the OP says they lived in where homosexuality was illegal, was it somewhere like Iran? Iirc, gay men there have a choice between prison (possibly a death sentence) or full surgical transition.

Btw, I do fully accept that tranwomen (and transmen) are what they claim to be. Transwomen are men who claim to be women, transmen are women who claim to be men. I don't see how their mental or sexuality struggles are any problem of mine. If transwomen are capable of knowing and accepting that they are not the same as women without expiring on the spot, then they can reframe the men's facilities as facilities for men and transwomen. Alternatively, they use a gender neutral facility. Women's facilities are for women and transmen.

There are people who claim to be a different race, one very famous one. By the 'be kind' logic of the OP she should have been affirmed not condemned.

Has the OP heard of erotomania? A deep seated belief that they are in a loving relationship with someone who is a relative, or complete stranger. Not always someone famous, they're the ones that hit the headlines. That the object of their affection doesn't reciprocate, is often fucking terrified, must cause them great mental distress. One woman, who was fixated on David Letterman, eventually killed herself. Shouldn't they be affirmed? Their dysphoria after all only damages one person not over 50% of society. It'll relieve their distress after all.