Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

It doesn’t sound like you do understand. It’s not naked bodies that are terrifying, it’s men wilfully violating women’s spaces.

The OP’s not confused.

Actually reading back I am not sure if my one word answer should be yes or no? 😅I think it’s the double negative confusion. The body of my answer makes it clear.

Is this the latest variation of “I have a gender neutral loo at home”?

I’m a sexual assault and rape survivor.

I choose to get changed in the open area, where possible, because my trauma is around being in a space behind a door where someone could burst through and strangle and rape me.

I don’t want a man in a single sex space where I am getting changed thank you.

It's a swimming pool. Therefore, full of wet people, I presume.

It's easier to put clothes on if you're dry. Drying yourself often involves a degree of nudity.

Oh I think the OP does understand this is just another thinly veiled attempt to justify leveraging men into women's single sex spaces - Look, some of you don't care about being naked in front of other women or seeing other women naked so what's your problem with doing so with a special set of men? They really are very sad that you won't do this for them.

OP, starting a thread about women’s privacy and dignity and then disengaging does rather look like you don’t actually care about women’s privacy and dignity. People have taken time to reply and it’s polite to do the same.

I’m posting, as always, for the lurkers.

I'm waiting for the but your husband sees you naked and he's a man argument which makes about as much sense as that one.

Yeah, and ‘your bathroom at home isn’t single sex and you’re happy with that.’

Maybe you haven't been in many women's changing rooms at a swimming pool to know what is normal?

Was it your first time there.

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreakswomen are not a subcategory of their own biological reality - so please rethink about using the word cis. For me, it’s a matter of power imbalance. In my experience when women are together there is a shared energy that goes when a man is present. So if I see another woman naked I may think wow - she’s got an incredible whatever or I love her confidence or just meh as in unbothered, but the way my brain works would be very different to a man’s. Of course not all men are vicious barbarians but when it does happen, it’s more likely to be men. This fact is central to why there needs to be sex specific spaces. As a woman, my body has gone through changes because of my biological reality, therefore I would feel safer being naked around another woman because it is likely she shares this also. Theirs a vulnerability that comes with it which just being in the presence of a man, including TW, would immediately make me cover up.

I'm really not.

I'd love to live in a house big enough for DH to have his own toilet 😬

Also, privacy and dignity are barriers helping to protect our physical safety. Most sexual offences are committed by men, and are more common in mixed-sex than single-sex facilities. Once men can freely ignore women’s right to privacy, there’s not much to stop them carrying out sexual offences including assault.

Agreed.

Also there's the oft-seen argument from the other side:
You can't have single-sex changing rooms! (stamps foot) If you won't let males into female-only changing rooms, then we'll just have to have individual cubicles for EVERYBODY! I prefer individual cubicles anyway. Do away with all communal changing rooms!

Seen it soooo many times. The one thing that they seem unable to accept is female-only, single-sex intimate facilities, as provided for in UK law.

And as for '... while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked... I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked'? 😂😂😂

A naked woman is not instinctively threatening to a women in the same way as a naked male stranger is. Also, women don’t usually perv on other women. It’s really not difficult to understand.

I’m so sorry that happened to you 💐

We have separate male and female changing rooms. In a female changing room there is an implied consent that females may be undressing. What is not consented to is for there to be male bodies in the female changing room. Because the male facilities are for them.

No, it's not the same at all.

The thing with nudity with men is that it usually brings in a sexual element. (There are some cases where that isn't true, and that is somewhat culturally mediated, but maleness and femaleness are by their very nature inherently sexual.)

And I don't mean a risk or danger element at all. I just mean that men and women, as a whole, have a whole differernt kind of relation to each other which is sexualised.

That's just reality, and it isn't a bad thing. There are lots of great things about sex. But it's also not always appropriate to bring it into every situation, and it can create social problems and frictions as well sometimes.

I have noticed in recent years that a lot of younger women, in particular, seem much less comfortable with female nudity in places like change rooms. It's too bad imo. It's a stress, it creates extra demands on public spaces like pools and change rooms which require more infrastructure, but mainly I think comfortable, casual exposure to other women's bodies in places like public baths is really healthy, especially for young girls. I'm not sure what happened to create that change, maybe so much emphasis on the female body as a sex object on television, films, and advertising.

You called it MrsTerryPratchett, these scolding plop and runners are just so tedious.

If you did not want a discussion/debate @Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks why did you go to the trouble of starting a thread for one? Do you know how talk forums, especially this one work? What was the point? Or do you just not like the responses you have received?

This is a gotcha thread isn't it?

The number of changing rooms that don't have individual cubicles is huge.
The cultural differents of various women on the subject of nakeness with the same sex is huge.

Try harder.

It may well have been intended to be a 'gotcha' thread but it was a piss poor attempt.

Oh wow, what a gotcha moment. Well OP you told us.

Hey vipers, we don’t need to worry about changing in front of males, because NAKED WOMEN walk among us in the ladies changing spaces too!

This from the same stable as “lesbians might also want to sexually assault straight women”, “how can you tell males from females, TWs have been in there all along” and “short haired women are being thrown out of the ladies toilets and its all your fault you big meanies”.

Well, I’m convinced, open the doors ladies, lets let any old fucker in.

Why are all these gotchas so poorly written?

OP are you male and felt uncomfortable being in the women's changing rooms?
If so, good, stick to the male changing rooms next time.