Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

Thank you again to all those who responded in good faith, I appreciate you taking the time to explain how you feel.

I'm sorry I wasn’t able to dedicate my day to reading and replying to the responses, as some people apparently thought I should have.

I’m not quite sure where to start with attempting to respond to all of the comments and questions, so apologies if this is a bit random and unsatisfying:

• to clarify, when I said I felt the same about a naked woman walking in as I would have if it was a naked man, I meant how I would have felt if it had been a unisex facility. Obviously this was a single sex changing room, so if a man had walked in I would have been quite confused and taken aback.
• this was not my first time at this pool, I’ve probably been there maybe 20 times before. There are often women naked in the showers, and obviously changing in the communal area, but it’s not that usual for someone to be just walking around the changing room naked and without a towel. I always go there with my swimming costume on under my clothes, and afterwards I always change in a cubicle.
• other leisure centre pool I sometimes go to only has unisex changing facilities (I think) but it’s all cubicles rather than communal. I much prefer that.
• There are other contexts where I’m more comfortable with nudity (though I still wouldn’t be naked myself) - I’ve done a fair bit of life drawing where the models were sometime male and sometimes female, very occasionally I’ve been to a beach where the odd person has been naked, and I’ve been to a few burlesque shows with both female and male performers. None of that makes me uncomfortable, maybe because it’s in less close proximity? Or because (in the life drawing and burlesque scenarios) it’s ok to be looking at the naked bodies?
• some people have said it’s healthy and liberating for women to be comfortable seeing other women’s naked bodies (in a real life setting rather than porn etc). I suppose my feeling is, if we’re going to take the attitude that it’s good for people to get more comfortable with seeing the naked bodies of ordinary people generally, isn’t that also the case for being around naked bodies of people of the opposite sex? I have friends who’ve been to other countries where they’ve been to unisex spas/saunas where everyone was naked and they said in those cultures (I can’t remember where, maybe Scandinavia?) people seemed comfortable with it.
• i’m not dismissing or minimising all of the reasons people have given for why they personally feel more comfortable around other women naked than men naked. It just feels to me like in discussions about single sex spaces there’s often an automatic assumption that it’s obvious that privacy and dignity are upheld as long as the space is single sex and destroyed if the space isn’t. That doesn’t align with how I experience privacy and dignity myself, but I’m aware I’m probably quite unusual in feeling that way.

Yes, you are unusual in not understanding why other people feel more uncomfortable getting naked with the opposite sex. Not sure what you are hoping to get out of this thread?

You're absolutely missing the point about normalising the female body if you think the same applies to seeing naked male bodies in the same space... Men can be normalised around males in their own space.

I think this may highlight part of why I feel differently about this from some others. I’m bisexual, and so men’s bodies are not inherently more sexual to me than women’s bodies. Maybe on some level I feel like an unwilling voyeur if other women are naked around me

I was hoping to find out from other people why they feel differently to me. And lots of people have kindly taken the time to explain to me how they feel, for which I’m grateful

Why did you couch your questions in the terms of (paraphrasing) “in the single sex spaces debate, people are using the terms privacy and dignity in a way I don’t agree with”? Why is that important to you and even more pertinently, why do you think your view on it would be relevant to what other women who prefer single sex spaces feel?

What is your problem OP? It’s a changing room so you may see people with nothing on.. so what? If you don’t like it look the other way

I find this thread quite weird. The OP's posts seem dreamlike, tangential & illogical, or like a photographic negative instead of the real picture. There's a lot of writing & no substance, no apparent point. As PP said, what was the purpose of this thread?

This is not a criticism: I'm just mystified. I have some possible answers, but I'll keep them to myself & move on.

I think the thing to realise is that this is social convention, and not so much about individuals. It;s about preserving a workable social equilibrium.

In environments where men and women get naked together, there is significant capacity for some kind of sexual connection, which may or may not be reciprocated, but which introduced larger unwanted elements into the environment. It makes, for example, a women's spa, a place where seeing and being seen by the opposite sex may be a significant element of the experience.

There are variations, culturally, around what is sexualised nudity. In some cases, social norms can render nudity in certain settings non-sexual, for example, in places where people don't wear clothes - in places like that nudity can become completely desexualised which certainly makes for a differernt sexual experience..

We typically try and desexualize medical settings with nudity too, although sometimes it doesn't work as well as we'd like.

Same sex attracted people don't tend to throw too much of a wrench into this on a day to day basis, because the numbers are small, in the case of women they don't tend to be sexually aggressive in the same way, and the social norms against that in places like changing rooms can work fairly effectivly in such limited numbers where most are not interested. Although, it's pretty clear where we are talking about settings composed primarily of gay men, the whole sexual element becomes ramped up and even extreme.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of any strangers male or female & I'm uncomfortable with seeing their nakedness as most people I know are. Whilst I accept that uncomfortableness is substantially more heightened in front of males that doesn't change the principal of the issue of uncomfortableness being a barometer for privacy.

Some might say it's a matter of 'cost' effectiveness but there's also a cost in needing to use a loo but they are all taken up by women who are changing rather than peeing because they are uncomfortable doing so in public. Queues are an on going problem in women's bathrooms that are particularly problematic if you have a special 'bladder control' need where I found myself using men's bathrooms when I was pregnant (I got some funny looks but no abuse).

I noticed in recent years most fashion stores no longer provide open change areas that's obviously a shrewd business decision given profit & privacy go hand in hand. The customer is always right?

Communal is safer if a woman or girl is unwell, passes out etc. Women around supporting you and to help you, you may not be found for hours or worst case scenario even a day or so if in a stall (depending on if/when stalls are cleaned).

Being naked around your own sex is completely different from being naked in front of males, this shouldn't need to be explained why. I don't think even a child would need it explained to them. Also, male bodies rape women. They pose a threat to us. Womens bodies don't. Again, this really, really should not need to be explained.

• other leisure centre pool I sometimes go to only has unisex changing facilities (I think) but it’s all cubicles rather than communal. I much prefer that.

You use another pool with a changing area and dont know if it has WSSS with cubicles?

But picked the mixed sex area without investigation?

You may prefer the mixed sex space but are more likely to suffer from sexual abuse in an area where men are. This is because men who like to spy with cameras have better access.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404294-police-agree-mixed-sex-changing-is-a-problem-bbc

Here ^ the police are objecting to mixed sex at the design stage as they recognise that giving access will result in criminal acts.

There’s an awful lot of contradictory comments from the OP too, such as ‘I’m bisexual so men’s naked bodies don’t bother me, but I feel like a voyeur around naked women’. I think I can work out why that is.

I think this is a very perceptive post. The OP is definitely fishing for information.

It’s really not that deep. God knows why this has to be a big drama 🙄. Stick to your own sexes changing room get changed do activity. That’s what 99% of us do anyway. Some people have far too much time on their hands.

None of these activists are working age women with young children I notice. Too busy.

That's a misrepresentation of what the OP said which was she found them equally sexual not that men's nakedness didn't bother her.

I prefer cubicles, and cannot be doing with the 'exhibitionist changers', however also accept that some folk are happy to walk around naked. If it made you feel uncomfortable then it made you feel uncomfortable though, even if folk say it shouldn't.

My gym has a few very elderly women that swim there who aren't too 'shy'. One of them can be reliably found front & centre starkers blow drying her privates. A bit much first thing in the morning…

Yes, we used to have one who really seemed to enjoy publicly drying herself, sticking her bum in folks faces and so on. She also randomly commented things like 'you look much better now, you were too thin before' and also tried to tell the staff how to run the facility. Not a nice atmosphere when she was there, tbh.

Yes I wasn’t happy with how I phrased it as I wrote it quickly before going to sleep, then it was too late to edit. I will have have another go in a bit.

Love the intelligent women on here, this explains completely, ty, personally never had a problem with sharing/changing with females, men a different issue entirely as we continue the battle.