Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

There have been a few like this recently.

One was the ludicrous ‘if women can be in workplaces alone with male people, then why aren’t women demanding single sex work environments.’ While ignoring that women actively consent to being in that space and that workplaces still need safeguarding policies to protect women.

Another was that apparently some feminists have demanded the freedom to engage with society despite the risk of being attacked. So therefore, shouldn’t female people agree with that and allow a special sub group of male people to be in access female single sex spaces.

I think this is just another version of those other ones.

💯

vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked

Really OP? You felt exactly the same way seeing a woman naked coming out of the showers naked as you would if it had been a man? In a woman's changing facility?

If that's genuinely the case I would say you are unusual if not unique.

Being in a female only changing room affords a greater degree of privacy and dignity than in a mixed sex changing room.

During Covid I had to wear scrubs to work and we had to change in and out of them at work. I knew the males around me, and would not have had safety concerns stripping off around them. I would, however, have felt humiliated and embarrassed if they saw me in my underwear.

This is about entrenched culture and customs. People don’t mind being seen in a bikini on a beach, but do mind male colleagues seeing them in their underwear at work.

There is little sign of a reduction in appetite for single sex changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, crisis shelters etc. Even if there were ways of screening out males who present risk, many (probably most) females would prefer female only.

OK it’s been two hours. How long before we can call Drive By Scolding?

Perhaps this poster is based in Australia and have gone to bed.

Just a suggestion.

Women’s bodies are distinct from men’s bodies in profoundly significant ways. We need, want and must protect our single-sex spaces.

It’s about consent, isn’t it? If you’d joined a gym or pool which had in its t&cs and or notices that no one should be naked in the public parts of the changing rooms, and you’d chosen it because you feel uncomfortable with nakedness even in single sex spaces, then you’d have a point.
as it is, the law is that single sex facilities must be exactly that, so you should never see a person of the opposite sex in there in any state of dress or undress. But it’s normal in our culture for there to be nakedness within the same sex. You’ve implicitly consented to this, but most certainly haven’t consented to the opposite sex person.

Don’t be so silly, OP.

I compiled a list of arguments made by one poster over the past week who has been asking similar questions with the view that female people should allow some male people into female single sex spaces.

Here is the list, not in order, but the list of the arguments used so far.

___

It is “authoritarian” to have toilets segregated by sex.

There is no 'right' to have toilets segregated by sex. While ignoring the restrictions applicable under Article 8.

The law is useless to have because it is not 100% effective in blocking harm to female people.

Female people are often alone with male people at work. ( ignoring that those female people have consented to being in a work environment with male people and that work place has safeguarding responsibilities)

Female people choose to have the freedom to risk rape so therefore they should accept male people in their female single sex provisions.

Male people with transgender identities get attacked in male toilets so female people must allow them access to female toilets. (based on a study with 369 trans people vs 435 061 people who were not trans identified where the figures reported used a wide range of harm and the word 'included'.)

There is no such thing really as 'sex' and if a male person has a cavity inserted into his groin, by a poor interpretation of an American dictionary that is enough to give that person the right to say they are female. And we can only assume that means that they should ignore the laws because this makes them dictionary authorised to say they are female.

Female people being asked if they are in the correct toilet for them, which has been happening for decades, is now supposedly a new phenomenon and it means that male people should be allowed into female toilets.

Apparently, blocking puberty of male people means that all male body cues are no longer detectable by female people.

Female people attack other female people.

_

I think this thread is along the same lines.

thank you for all of the thoughtful, honest, interesting responses. I haven’t had a chance yet to consider them properly and formulate my replies, but I will do later on

So this is an attempt at a gotcha and it comes down to the tired old argument of 'women also do bad things, so why do you care if men do bad things? Just let them into women's spaces'.

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks it would be great if you come back and give us your own answer to your question.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

I don’t feel my privacy and dignity are infringed in that situation, no. I regularly use a gym changing room where most of the club members are aged 65+ and I would say more than 50% walk about naked/stand naked having conversations with others/stand at the mirrors blow-drying their hair with only knickers on. They are not in the least bit body-shy: a confidence and acceptance that comes with age I think. It just simply doesn’t bother me. They are just naked women and naked women have never been any kind of a threat to me. Personally I still get changed under a towel because that’s my choice and my issue- I don’t want anyone to see me naked. If I also felt offended by seeing other women naked, I simply wouldn’t use the changing room.

So because some women may feel uncomfortable seeing naked female bodies, we should let men in. Haha no.

A good example of what passes for logic in certain circles.

It’s so transparent. Bless them. They never seem to send their brightest and best. Or maybe they do lol.

You're naked, nearly naked, or just preparing to get undressed in a women's changing room. Another person walks in. I'm expected to believe you reaction would be exactly the same if that person was male or female!? In this scenario it doesn't really matter if that person was naked or fully dressed.

If it really makes no difference why bother with changing rooms, or clothes, at all?

No issue with other naked women in a women’s
changing room. With a man you’re on edge. Why are they they? What are they going to do? They’re stronger than me and frankly capable of rape.

I'm a very modest person and wouldn't want to be seen naked in front of anyone who wasn't an intimate partner. My gym has single-sex communal changing rooms, where I get partially undressed. Some women get fully undressed. It's slightly awkward. It's absolutely nothing compared to having a male person in there. On the one occasion when that happened, I walked straight out and walked home in my gym kit. It's really not comparable. Other women aren't a physical threat and they aren't leering.

I don't love getting undressed in front of women and would far rather have a private cubicle but there is NO chance in hell I would get undressed in front of a random man no matter how he identifies. The difference is in front of women I feel slight discomfort, in front of a male it's a complete invasion of privacy and distress.

You missed the

Girls and women being raped/sexually assaulted or subjected to other male VAWaG are not relevant as there are not enough female victims to matter but if even one male just feels at risk he matters and must be given access to any WSSS

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

Or, "If so, why?"

I don't understand what cisgender is sorry.

It's always sounded to me like a gender that's sprung a puncture.