Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

It depends on whether you think the OP posted in good faith or not.

If you don't think they have, they've collected a load of bollocks to c&p elsewhere.

The irony is that because there are ‘private spaces’ that are single sex, it does minimise the risk of ‘sexual violence’. It doesn’t remove it. But by nature of those spaces and crowd movement, it does provide a layer of protection to a limited space for a limited time.

Whereas the ‘workplace’ covers a huge space in comparison and covers a huge amount of time in comparison. Sexually violent events will of course be higher in comparison.

It is not rocket science.

However, it always also comes down to consent. And women consent to being in a workplace that is mixed sex. That consent has an expectation that male people will behave respectfully.

There is no consent for male people to be present in female single sex spaces. Yet, in these discussions about workplaces the issue of consent has been studiously ignored by howsa. Everytime it is pointed out how the two situations are not comparable because of that consent, we see deflection or that it is ignored.

Because consent is inconvenient to a person who uses safeguarding and zero sum game in the same reference.

I know.

The fact that it so aptly described what this poster has tried to do now for two weeks made that post a great case of gaslighting DARVO.

And highlights perfectly why male people are excluded from female single sex spaces in the first place.

How many times have women on this thread heard that ‘you consented to this, why won’t you consent to that’ argument from creepy, no mark men?

‘You slept with him, why won’t you sleep with me?’

’you share a work place with men, why won’t you share your changing room with them?’

some people (often men) cannot respect boundaries and consent. The law is required to control such people

The name change to an older one and the first post were not random and I think that the prompts did not work as intended.

And the C&P happens anyway with Howseitgoin working hard across threads upselling the rights of men to be in WSSS.

I guess there will be a drive to include AI searchable words for faith, political views and race etc in as many posts as possible going forward

The Op may have initially posted in good faith and initially many of their replies seemed to genuinely not understand why replies were ‘robust’. So I had some (misplaced) sympathy until they said this: I do feel differently about the inclusion of trans women in women’s single sex spaces and about the merits of unisex spaces.

Hopefully the Op is sufficiently reflective and self aware to eventually realise that this belief ^ was coming through both their initial and then their whataboutery posts.

Hummm I did a search after the sneer post DrBlackbird which imo limits any theory.of accidental / down to poor professional training / etc

The OP may be able to help How with the theory that Ladybrain exists people can be sexed based on personality because using biology would create "issues".

Plus the OP did not pick AIBU or Chat

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Yes. An advanced search is interesting. Maybe the OP didn’t realise how their posts came across. Considering they have a history in offering sympathy to posters who have abusive histories towards women who prioritise sex over gender. And who defend posters who wish to silence or remove those voices from mainstream viewing.

Or perhaps the pattern is that some
posters having supported those voices in the past that have been abusive, thinks that their post was what passes as open minded inquiry. After all righteous posters see that kind of interaction everyday and think it is righteous posting.

It also seems to be part of the pattern that women who are responding to someone who has been abusive towards them individually or as part of a group in the past, should just absorb that abuse and ignore silencing tactics. And any push back is considered evidence that those pushing back are the bullies to someone who has not picked up the past behaviour of the poster they are supporting.

I mean, that is what we also see frequently in comments about JK Rowling, that of course she is abused, but she should stay ‘classy’. With ‘classy’ being just absorb the abuse because to react is not classy and is her abusing her wealth.

It seems to be par for the course. I can see that there is an overly simplistic emotional response happening where some posters (generally) offer up sympathy to the abuser. How many times do we see it. I suspect one or two of those posters who used to do this regularly in the past finally learned when they saw the pattern of abuse of the person they were supporting. They have notably stopped jumping immediately to expressing that response.

As much as I’m reluctant to get drawn back into this thread, I wanted to answer your question, as it sounds like you’re genuinely interested. I wouldn’t be very happy if I no longer had access to a private cubicle, as I wouldn’t be comfortable stripping in the communal area after swimming, so I’d have to do the same complicated, awkward series of manoeuvres I do on the beach, trying to dry and change under a towel without dropping it. But if there really were only two choices, either me changing under my towel or trans users of the swimming pool having to use communal changing rooms designated for the sex which does not align with their gender, then I would choose the former, because I think their discomfort would probably be greater than mine.

Why do you not think the trans people should obey the law?

Ok.

Do you think that any woman or girl who disagrees with you should have to self-exclude or be shamed for not agreeing with you?

So you preferred option is for a individual space failing that for a mixed sex space while having problems in a single sex space?

And rather than having men obey the laws to stay out of WSSS you would surrender your feelings of privacy and dignity and safety for them and use a single sex space?

I can’t get changed in a space behind a door where there is a man in the space outside.

I can’t. I simply can’t.

I need the legal protection that the SC has affirmed of there being a single sex women’s space that I can get changed in.

What is your solution for me?

Why do you think a male's discomfort at changing in the males would be greater than your discomfort, as a female, getting undressed in front of a male? Change rooms are based on sex. Not 'gender'. And most of these males don't feel any 'discomfort', it's the validation they seek. It's the women around them that serve the purpose. Not the building itself.

Well, you’re entitled to your minority view, obvs. Like most women, I think women only spaces are more important than men’s feelings.

Yeah, you’ll not get an answer to that

People with views like @Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks holds don’t tend to think much about what women need I’m afraid and certainly won’t be drawn into discussing real life examples of those needs

‘because I think their discomfort would probably be greater than mine’

Is there a group whose discomfort would override that of trans identifying men? Such as women sexual assault survivors, elderly women, highly religious women? Or do the needs of men trump the needs of any women no matter the circumstances, that men should be centred at any and every opportunity?

🙁

because I think their discomfort would probably be greater than mine.

Firstly, why have you decided your discomfort level is the benchmark?

There are many women more vulnerable/less privileged than you whose discomfort may be significantly higher than yours because of trauma/abuse/all kinds of reasons.

Why do you think you have the right to totally disregard their discomfort?

Secondly, why can't men's 'discomfort' be dealt with in the confines of men's facilities or if necessary, third spaces.

Why do you see any need at all to sacrifice women's comfort for men's?

What comes across in that comment is that you are an extremely privileged woman who has never given the slightest thought to women who do not have your privilege and who can't afford your luxury beliefs,

Even if this were true, why do you prioritise their comfort over your own? Or prioritise theirs over the women who may have to self exclude from the space?

well said.

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks would you mind answering me please. Thank you.

I know that Australian English isn't the same as English English but what are phenomenas?

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks Could you answer Taztoy, and also reply to me about why safe design isn’t worth it?

How about all the people with hidden disabilities like heart conditions? Don’t they deserve safety too?

It can happen to anyone. Emilia Clarke (fit, in her 20s) felt really ill and went to the toilet in the gym. She was then violently ill. Fortunately a woman was alerted and called an ambulance. EC had emergency brain surgery. It could have been very different if she was in a private, sound resistant cubicle.

When 11% of people have cardiac arrests on the toilet and there’s millions with heart conditions you do know the logical conclusion to making every cubicle completely private don’t you? It would be worse demographically for drug addicts and people with poor mental health too.

I note you haven’t commented on my graphic either.