Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

Thanks. I'm sending you another waffle reply before thread fills up.

As I understand it:

• you feel uncomfortable changing in front of men / women equally
• you are uncomfortable seeing women walking naked in communal changing which you have to pass through once you've got changed
• you use a private cubicle to change
• you support trans using communal changes aligning with gender identity.

1-3 are fine. But I did want to explain that okay - some women do dislike women wandering round naked in changing rooms. There's AIBU threads about that. I can't say I notice, and also just it's not very practical to expect people to stay covered. Certainly a naked conga would be a bit out of order! But walking is okay in my view.

There seems to be an implicit assumption in your posts this is the same feeling seeing a man. It isn't.

I am relatively new on here - newly peaked as they'd say from the Sandie Peggie case. I used to think I was okay with transwomen in women's loos until I realised I wasn't. So that's why I might seem calmer as I've not had to put up with as much as longer standing posters!

To explain the difference. I've walked into the women's loos and saw a woman standing in her knickers drying her skirt. I had a bit of a wtf double take. She apologised. I said oh don't worry. I guess I was initially uncomfortable too but she wasn't doing anything wrong.

In comparison on another occasion I came out of the loo and suddenly felt tense and on edge - flight or fight. I looked over and realised it was because there was a transwoman at the far sink. I felt a bit sorry for them as they were clearly trying to be inconspicuous and looked terrified.

These feelings overlap but aren't the same. The first is more around surprise/disgust (although to be clear she wasn't doing anything wrong) and the latter about surprise/safety.

On the first I got over myself, sure people usually wear more clothes than that. The latter I realised was my body protecting themselves. It took me a while previously I thought I was okay with transwomen in women's loos, until I realised my reaction was valid and focused on keeping me safe. I respect that.

I also respect that many many women will have a strong fear response than me to a biological man in the womens facilities. Particularly if they have a history of male trauma. That's valid and they need same sex spaces.

I’m not going to get an answer then @Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks ?

why does your wish to be nice and inclusive trump my legal right (and it is a legal right) to a single sex women’s space?

I’m not the only woman in the U.K. to have trauma that means I can’t cope with a man in a single sex space, or be from a culture or religion that deems it inappropriate, or just not want it because I don’t want it.

Gosh. Well, you're welcome to put the wants of men who believe they identify as women above your own needs if you want to. Just as long as you don't expect the rest of us to do likewise.

This is an excellent question.

Because if you think there is no group of women whose needs should override the wishes of men who believe they identify as women, I think it's pretty clear that you know they are men and are treating them like men (i.e. with a lot more respect than women are treated).

Funny how all those people who would be happy to change with a transgender identifying male are not campaigning for third spaces that they could also go and use.

A couple of minor points of clarification:

• I don’t know if I definitely feel equally uncomfortable changing in front of men and women. I think it depends on the men and women in question. There are certainly some men in the world who i would feel extremely uncomfortable changing in front of, without any comparable women that i would feel equally uncomfortable changing in front of.
• I’m not sure if I support all trans women using women’s communal changing facilities. I really don’t know what I think the solution is.

thank you for explaining the difference between how you felt in those two different cases of encountering unexpected situations in public toilets. I respect that those experiences are real and important, though I haven’t ever personally had that feeling when encountering a trans woman in a single sex space

I’m not sure whether I misunderstood the question I was attempting to answer, or whether you did. I thought I was being asked whether I would be willing to forego the use of a private cubicle to change in, and instead have to change in the women’s single sex communal changing room, if that meant private cubicles were made available for trans people to change in (so they did not have to change in either the men’s or women’s single sex changing facilities). That doesn’t have anything to do with trans people obeying the law or not.

I do feel differently [from FWS] about the inclusion of trans women in women’s single sex spaces and about the merits of unisex spaces. But I don’t pretend to have an answer in terms of how things should be set up in practise to reconcile the needs of all those affected.

Perhaps it's worth me clarifying that not everyone who wants same sex spaces is personally fussed by transwomen in them.

Many acknowledge they can't consent for other women, and or want to stand up for the most vulnerable women who need these.

R.e. "I don't pretend to have an answer" is somewhat of a cop out. There isn't an answer. You can't make everyone happy here.

Some public buildings do already have gender neutral facilities but transwomen are openly refusing to use them and going into the general women's instead - even taking photos and posting them online.

Transwomen want to be in women's spaces no exceptions. Women don't want them there. It's not safe or realistic to replace with single enclosed cubicles everywhere, so that leaves the question of "who do you support here?".

• I’m not sure if I support all trans women using women’s communal changing facilities. I really don’t know what I think the solution is.

What an odd response. You think some transwomen should use women's communal single sex changing facilities but not others? How the hell do you propose to police that? And how do you square that for the women and girls who do not want to share those spaces with men which us what transwomen are?Bizarre.

The overwhelming majority of women and girls do not want men and boys in their single sex spaces, services, sports, etc., the solution for trans people is accessing the spaces for their own sex or a separate additional space. A perfectly simple, straightforward solution that is not open to interpretation.

How am I supposed to know the difference between the trans women you have decided it’s ok to allow in women’s single sex spaces and those who you have decided it’s not?

This is the thing with a person who wishes to be ‘kind’ in this way. The reality is often that they have in mind that either all those male people are going to be ‘good’ male people. Or they choose to ignore the ‘bad’ male people because it is I convenient to their act of kindness.

How many times do we see the ‘just the’ segmenting? ‘Just the’ post operative ones, ‘just the’ ones who are genuine. When the reality is there is no way to identify this group if it even mattered to change the reason female people needed single sex provisions in the first place. Which it doesn’t.

So often we are shamed by people who perceive themselves as being the kind and righteous ones, yet who by their very arbitrating which male person is and isn’t worthy of being treated as female is the very opposite of ‘kind’ and righteous. When the fairest solution is to exclude all male people above the age of about 8 years old and if that group need additional provisions, organisations can provide them.

When someone shows you who they are by putting themselves in the position of deciding which male person is deserving of being treated as female and which isn’t, believe them. They are not the kind person they believe themselves to be.

There is no way it can be done.

It is why any declaration that relies on having to accurately categorise which male person is and isn’t worthy is devoid of reality. If someone makes any statement as to somehow qualifying a sub-group of male people as being worthy while others are not, they are falsely propping up their conscience.

They are making completely empty statements that makes them feel good but lack any ability to be applied.

However, those statements usually goes hand in hand with posts that are made to undermine or directly shame those who see this clearly and who reject someone else’s attempt to impose their desired reality onto material reality.

I'm not sure if I support all trans women using women’s communal changing facilities. I really don’t know what I think the solution is.

Well who do you support, who do you not support?

Whats the criteria? How is it to be applied?

Why would you get to make that call on behalf of other women anyway? Why can't we just keep all men out of women's spaces to begin with?

I’m not sure if I support all trans women using women’s communal changing facilities. I really don’t know what I think the solution is.

How on earth do you think we can distinguish between "some trans women" and "other trans women" though?

We can't even distinguish between "trans women" and "other men".

The only solution to keeping men out is to keep all men out, including all men who identify as trans women.

Exactly, Helleofabore, Taztoy, TheKeatingFive and MissScarlettInTheBallroom*.

People who posit that kind of nonsense to signal how kind and reasonable they are are anything but and seemingly lack the ability of intelligent thought.

Exactly.

Agree. We tried “be kind” let some in and it didn’t work. So that’s that. Hard no to everyone endorsed by the Supreme Court. It’s fairer and safer to the majority. Can we all stop discussing it now. It’s been decided unequivocally. If you don’t like it - well tough luck.

The trans rights activists' usual argument is that one makes the decision after the problem arises - this is Sturgeon's approach on declaring that a rapist can no longer call himself a woman and be taken seriously.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks Yesterday 22:13
I’m not sure if I support all trans women using women’s communal changing facilities. I really don’t know what I think the solution is.

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks you can help yourself find a solution be answering Taztoys question :

why does your wish to be nice and inclusive trump my legal right (and it is a legal right) to a single sex women’s space?

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks Yesterday 22:13
I respect that those experiences are real and important, though I haven’t ever personally had that feeling when encountering a trans woman in a single sex space

Unless you are male you have never encountered a man in a single sex space as by his choice and his act of entry he has made it a mixed sex space.

Taztoy · Yesterday 18:06

I’m not going to get an answer then Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks?

why does your wish to be nice and inclusive trump my legal right (and it is a legal right) to a single sex women’s space?

I’m not the only woman in the U.K. to have trauma that means I can’t cope with a man in a single sex space, or be from a culture or religion that deems it inappropriate, or just not want it because I don’t want it.

Taztoy has clearly explained why WSSS are important (to her and other women) and why she has a need for WSSS and clearly explained that WSSS has been recognised in law as being a lawful provision.

So @Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks whats you relpy to Taztoys question :

why does your wish to be nice and inclusive trump my legal right (and it is a legal right) to a single sex women’s space?

Transvestite fetishism is a condition. Some men dress in women's clothes because it arouses them, and some will pretend to be 'trans' to access women's spaces. Some men may genuinely feel more comfortable dressing in womens clothes and using women's spaces.

To women who don't wish to change with men, it doesn't make much difference what the man's reasons are. Women with a trauma history are.likely to feel intimidated anxious, stressed, and fearful - all the reasons posited for why trans identifying men dont want to change with men, in fact, apply to women who dont want to change with men.

Why would some men's preference for a male free space get respected, but women not get their preference respected?

Which reduces women to 'acceptable collateral damage' 😡

And completely disregards women's preference in favour of men's preference.

Exactly what @ArabellaSaurus says. You can surely see that keeping spaces female only when necessary is best for women and girls, although it might not suit what your trans friends want.

It's that illogical double standard that always got me.

If a man doesn't want to be in a space with other men, it's because he has genuine reasons and must be supported.

If a woman doesn't want a man in her space it's because she's unkind and exclusionary.

It's also totally unfair, of course.

Why men get listened to and women get told to be quiet and not upset people.