Page 6 | Women’s privacy and dignity

JustAnotherFunday · 08/09/2025 17:29

Just to add I hope the OP doesn't want to normalise girls getting changed in front of naked (or not) adult men...

That's what would happen if transwomen were allowed into my female changing room!

With the usual caveat I'm not saying transwomen are generally pedos, there's no just way for me to tell which biological man in there is. It's safeguarding.

It would be a pedo field trip. Urgh.

lcakethereforeIam · 08/09/2025 17:33

@Keeptoiletssafe sorry for a bit of a derail but I went to a bird reserve today, the small toilet block, off the carpark, is divided women one side and men the other. They've put floor to ceiling partitions and doors in, with a small gap at the bottom plenty big enough for a mobile. I didn't want to complain to the staff who were reserve wardens and volunteers but I filled in a card I found asking for feedback. I told them they'd sacrificed safety for privacy which was still compromised by the gap they'd left. I'm probably wasting my time but it's worth a punt.

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 17:48

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 17:29

Why on earth did my post get deleted?!

I pointed out how uneasily the OP reference to that sat with me in the context of women being vouyers if they cop an eye full.

And who reading and reported?
Because the post did read as a personal attack to me 🤷‍♀️ rather expanded on the OPs original comments?

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 17:53

lcakethereforeIam · 08/09/2025 17:33

@Keeptoiletssafe sorry for a bit of a derail but I went to a bird reserve today, the small toilet block, off the carpark, is divided women one side and men the other. They've put floor to ceiling partitions and doors in, with a small gap at the bottom plenty big enough for a mobile. I didn't want to complain to the staff who were reserve wardens and volunteers but I filled in a card I found asking for feedback. I told them they'd sacrificed safety for privacy which was still compromised by the gap they'd left. I'm probably wasting my time but it's worth a punt.

Good on you
I think its a valid issue.
More so when the service is provided in an location where women can be in an isolated area and also create a pattern of regular visits.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 18:05

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 17:48

And who reading and reported?
Because the post did read as a personal attack to me 🤷‍♀️ rather expanded on the OPs original comments?

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It reads like trying to make a parallel that really sits uneasily with me. It wasn't personal. It was a concern about why someone would describe women in a women's changing room as voyeurs full stop. In the context of the subject matter where we have men flashing their bits in women's changing rooms this then contextualises women as flashing other women as almost comparable.

If you think that's a personal, then FFS. It was a comment on language usage.

No it doesn't sit well. Others on this thread have expressed an uneasy with the content of the OP. Given we have so many posters trying to misrepresent and twist what is constantly I think the use of the word does make for distrust and unease.

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 18:40

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 18:05

It reads like trying to make a parallel that really sits uneasily with me. It wasn't personal. It was a concern about why someone would describe women in a women's changing room as voyeurs full stop. In the context of the subject matter where we have men flashing their bits in women's changing rooms this then contextualises women as flashing other women as almost comparable.

If you think that's a personal, then FFS. It was a comment on language usage.

No it doesn't sit well. Others on this thread have expressed an uneasy with the content of the OP. Given we have so many posters trying to misrepresent and twist what is constantly I think the use of the word does make for distrust and unease.

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Sorry MN must of eaten my " not " 🚩
I did not read my post back and said exactly the opposite of what I intended to.

So I apologise for the post.

(but will let stand if that is ok with you?
as proof of my poor posting skill)

Because the your post did NOT read as a personal attack to me 🤷‍♀️ rather expanded on the OPs original comments.

You just explored the idea which was raised by the OPs comments.

Again apologies

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 18:41

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 18:40

Sorry MN must of eaten my " not " 🚩
I did not read my post back and said exactly the opposite of what I intended to.

So I apologise for the post.

(but will let stand if that is ok with you?
as proof of my poor posting skill)

Because the your post did NOT read as a personal attack to me 🤷‍♀️ rather expanded on the OPs original comments.

You just explored the idea which was raised by the OPs comments.

Again apologies

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Sorry just fed up of the bullshit.

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 18:50

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 18:41

Sorry just fed up of the bullshit.

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No

Your post was totally fair comment.

If I had actually said that you made a personal attack I should explain why as the OP classed themselves in the role of person who is taking sexual interest in women or men in the pool area.

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:20

TempestTost · 08/09/2025 02:39

I think the thing to realise is that this is social convention, and not so much about individuals. It;s about preserving a workable social equilibrium.

In environments where men and women get naked together, there is significant capacity for some kind of sexual connection, which may or may not be reciprocated, but which introduced larger unwanted elements into the environment. It makes, for example, a women's spa, a place where seeing and being seen by the opposite sex may be a significant element of the experience.

There are variations, culturally, around what is sexualised nudity. In some cases, social norms can render nudity in certain settings non-sexual, for example, in places where people don't wear clothes - in places like that nudity can become completely desexualised which certainly makes for a differernt sexual experience..

We typically try and desexualize medical settings with nudity too, although sometimes it doesn't work as well as we'd like.

Same sex attracted people don't tend to throw too much of a wrench into this on a day to day basis, because the numbers are small, in the case of women they don't tend to be sexually aggressive in the same way, and the social norms against that in places like changing rooms can work fairly effectivly in such limited numbers where most are not interested. Although, it's pretty clear where we are talking about settings composed primarily of gay men, the whole sexual element becomes ramped up and even extreme.

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There are some very interesting and thought provoking insights here, thank you.

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:29

Howseitgoin · 08/09/2025 03:20

Personally, I feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of any strangers male or female & I'm uncomfortable with seeing their nakedness as most people I know are. Whilst I accept that uncomfortableness is substantially more heightened in front of males that doesn't change the principal of the issue of uncomfortableness being a barometer for privacy.

Some might say it's a matter of 'cost' effectiveness but there's also a cost in needing to use a loo but they are all taken up by women who are changing rather than peeing because they are uncomfortable doing so in public. Queues are an on going problem in women's bathrooms that are particularly problematic if you have a special 'bladder control' need where I found myself using men's bathrooms when I was pregnant (I got some funny looks but no abuse).

I noticed in recent years most fashion stores no longer provide open change areas that's obviously a shrewd business decision given profit & privacy go hand in hand. The customer is always right?

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Thank you for sharing your honest feelings and views, it’s reassuring to hear from others who feel uncomfortable with nudity even in single sex spaces, and also to know that you agree that feeling is relevant to the concept of privacy.

That’s also an interesting point about the costs and benefits of communal changing. I’m lucky in that at my leisure centre there are 4 cubicles (in addition to toilets) and there has always been one free for me to change in when I came out of the pool. But I know that’s only the case because most women change in the communal area.

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:43

AnSolas · 08/09/2025 05:58

other leisure centre pool I sometimes go to only has unisex changing facilities (I think) but it’s all cubicles rather than communal. I much prefer that.

You use another pool with a changing area and dont know if it has WSSS with cubicles?

But picked the mixed sex area without investigation?

You may prefer the mixed sex space but are more likely to suffer from sexual abuse in an area where men are. This is because men who like to spy with cameras have better access.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404294-police-agree-mixed-sex-changing-is-a-problem-bbc

Here ^ the police are objecting to mixed sex at the design stage as they recognise that giving access will result in criminal acts.

I’ve only seen a single changing area, but I haven’t explored the facilities much, I just go straight for the first available cubicle I see. There are signs to male and female toilets, which surprised me given the changing facilities appeared to be unisex, but perhaps it’s because the men’s toilets have urinals.

I suspect many of the men who use that leisure centre may be gay as it’s in a neighbourhood which is popular with gay men.

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:47

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 08/09/2025 07:23

There’s an awful lot of contradictory comments from the OP too, such as ‘I’m bisexual so men’s naked bodies don’t bother me, but I feel like a voyeur around naked women’. I think I can work out why that is.

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What is your theory? The truth is that I’m working through my thoughts as I type. And I think you’re slightly misrepresenting what I’ve said. I didn’t say naked men’s bodies don’t bother me, just that they don’t bother me significantly more

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:48

Howseitgoin · 08/09/2025 07:37

That's a misrepresentation of what the OP said which was she found them equally sexual not that men's nakedness didn't bother her.

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Thank you!

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Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:49

GleisZwei · 08/09/2025 07:41

I prefer cubicles, and cannot be doing with the 'exhibitionist changers', however also accept that some folk are happy to walk around naked. If it made you feel uncomfortable then it made you feel uncomfortable though, even if folk say it shouldn't.

Thank you

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:53

lcakethereforeIam · 08/09/2025 09:28

I don't get how being bisexuality is at all relevant. Changing rooms are separated by sex not by which sex we are attracted to.

I was responding to a pp talking about how when you have men and women naked around each other it inevitably introduces a sexual element

OP posts:

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/09/2025 01:07

Hello! I am still up. Can I ask if you have a connection to the Good Law Project? Don’t feel you have to answer but it would be useful to chat.

If not, I hope you still took away from my posts the elements of good design and how complete privacy can be a hindrance to health and safety, particularly in a mixed sex environment.

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:17

GailBlancheViola · 08/09/2025 09:53

I'm sorry I wasn’t able to dedicate my day to reading and replying to the responses, as some people apparently thought I should have.

No-one expects you to dedicate your day to reading and replying but why start a thread that you had no intention of being active on for at the very least many hours? Do you normally start a conversation with a group and then walk off immediately before anyone has joined in or answered your questions?

to clarify, when I said I felt the same about a naked woman walking in as I would have if it was a naked man, I meant how I would have felt if it had been a unisex facility. Obviously this was a single sex changing room, so if a man had walked in I would have been quite confused and taken aback.

It wasn't a unisex facility though was it? So there absolutely should never have been a man in there naked or otherwise.

this was not my first time at this pool, I’ve probably been there maybe 20 times before. There are often women naked in the showers, and obviously changing in the communal area, but it’s not that usual for someone to be just walking around the changing room naked and without a towel. I always go there with my swimming costume on under my clothes, and afterwards I always change in a cubicle.

You sound very judgemental of this woman, view her as an exhibitionist and the vibe I got from your first oost was that if she was prepared to do that in the company of women she should also be prepared to do so in front of men. The woman in question obviously felt safe and confident enough to walk from the shower into the main changing area naked due to it being single sex. You state you go with your swimming costume on slready and change in a cubicle afterwards, you think this woman should have done/do the same? Why?

other leisure centre pool I sometimes go to only has unisex changing facilities (I think) but it’s all cubicles rather than communal. I much prefer that.

So go there instead if the sight of a body confident naked woman in a single sex facility irritates you so much.

There are other contexts where I’m more comfortable with nudity (though I still wouldn’t be naked myself) - I’ve done a fair bit of life drawing where the models were sometime male and sometimes female, very occasionally I’ve been to a beach where the odd person has been naked, and I’ve been to a few burlesque shows with both female and male performers. None of that makes me uncomfortable, maybe because it’s in less close proximity? Or because (in the life drawing and burlesque scenarios) it’s ok to be looking at the naked bodies?

Again, you are judging the woman in your scenario as being performative, you seem to be of the impression she wanted you to look at her naked body. You are happy with other forms of public nudty but not nudity in a single sex changing area, which is rather strange to say the least.

some people have said it’s healthy and liberating for women to be comfortable seeing other women’s naked bodies (in a real life setting rather than porn etc). I suppose my feeling is, if we’re going to take the attitude that it’s good for people to get more comfortable with seeing the naked bodies of ordinary people generally, isn’t that also the case for being around naked bodies of people of the opposite sex? I have friends who’ve been to other countries where they’ve been to unisex spas/saunas where everyone was naked and they said in those cultures (I can’t remember where, maybe Scandinavia?) people seemed comfortable with it.

As always, the naked spas/saunas in Scandanavian countries is brought up as a wedge to allow men into women spaces in the UK. In those unisex saces in Scandavia all those who attend have given consent to do so. In the UK the overwhelming majority of women and girls do not consent to being naked in front of men in single sex changing rooms.

i’m not dismissing or minimising all of the reasons people have given for why they personally feel more comfortable around other women naked than men naked. It just feels to me like in discussions about single sex spaces there’s often an automatic assumption that it’s obvious that privacy and dignity are upheld as long as the space is single sex and destroyed if the space isn’t. That doesn’t align with how I experience privacy and dignity myself, but I’m aware I’m probably quite unusual in feeling that way.

So how do you experience privacy and dignity then? How did this woman being naked in a single sex changing room have any impact on your privacy and dignity?

Edited

Surely it is totally normal on a discussion forum like this to ask a question then come back hours or even days later to see what people have said in response? It’s not like a live chat where people are sitting there waiting for you to reply.

I wasn’t being ‘very judgemental’ of the woman, at most I was being mildly judgemental. It’s not that I think it’s wrong to use the communal changing area (it’s obviously what it’s there for), but I do think it’s a bit unnecessary to wander around completely naked - why not wrap yourself in a towel? It’s not very considerate to others who don’t particularly want to see strangers naked.

i would go to the other leisure centre but it’s a bit further away and the pool is a bit smaller.

it’s not that I thought the woman wanted me to look at her naked body, more I wondered (and I will admit again this could be entirely imagination on my part) if she was slightly showing off her confidence and comfort with her naked body, and maybe noticed me avert my gaze and was judging me for being prudish or something? But she may well have been entirely oblivious to me and thinking about the shopping she needed to get after leaving the pool!

I don’t think I can articulately explain what privacy and dignity mean to me. It obviously has something to do with control of your body and you circumstances, but it’s hard to pin down succinctly. I’m not sure if I feel that the other women being naked had an effect on my sense of my own privacy or dignity or not

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:21

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/09/2025 01:07

Hello! I am still up. Can I ask if you have a connection to the Good Law Project? Don’t feel you have to answer but it would be useful to chat.

If not, I hope you still took away from my posts the elements of good design and how complete privacy can be a hindrance to health and safety, particularly in a mixed sex environment.

Hello! Another night owl 😄 I really should be in bed.

No, I don’t have any connection to the GLP. I am familiar with what they do (I am a lawyer), but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who works there. Why did you think I might? I’m sorry, I haven’t properly read your messages yet so it may be that you’ve explained

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:26

Howseitgoin · 08/09/2025 10:10

i’m not dismissing or minimising all of the reasons people have given for why they personally feel more comfortable around other women naked than men naked. It just feels to me like in discussions about single sex spaces there’s often an automatic assumption that it’s obvious that privacy and dignity are upheld as long as the space is single sex and destroyed if the space isn’t. That doesn’t align with how I experience privacy and dignity myself, but I’m aware I’m probably quite unusual in feeling that way.

"So how do you experience privacy and dignity then? How did this woman being naked in a single sex changing room have any impact on your privacy and dignity?"

The OP initially said:

"Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked."

So her point wasn't so much about people choosing to be naked but a desire for cubicles for those who are uncomfortable undressing in front of others.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify these points on my behalf, I really appreciate it ❤️

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:31

JustAnotherFunday · 08/09/2025 13:28

Maybe on some level I feel like an unwilling voyeur if other women are naked around me

I do wonder OP if you've internalised some homophobia and that's hindering you. When more people were coming out there were a lot of complaints about gays in changing rooms.

These women know that there will be lesbian and bisexual women in there. You aren't any sort of voyeur as they've consented to you seeing them naked as a fellow woman.

Obviously as in the norm in changing facilities noone is watching anyone or anything like that.

There's nothing wrong with feeling as uncomfortable with naked women as you do men. All feelings are valid, but yours is quite unusual and you can't base wider policy on it.

Edited

I’m sure I do have some internalised homophobia. When I was at school the merest hint that someone might be looking at another girl in that way was regarded as downright disgusting

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:36

JustAnotherFunday · 08/09/2025 17:29

Just to add I hope the OP doesn't want to normalise girls getting changed in front of naked (or not) adult men...

That's what would happen if transwomen were allowed into my female changing room!

With the usual caveat I'm not saying transwomen are generally pedos, there's no just way for me to tell which biological man in there is. It's safeguarding.

It would be a pedo field trip. Urgh.

Is it ok for boys to get changed in front of adult men? I think quite a few paedophiles are interested in boys instead of (or as well as) girls

OP posts:

Original poster

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:38

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 17:29

Why on earth did my post get deleted?!

I pointed out how uneasily the OP reference to that sat with me in the context of women being vouyers if they cop an eye full.

Just in case you were wondering, it was not me who reported you post, I never even saw it

OP posts:

JustAnotherFunday · 09/09/2025 01:53

Having thought about it OP, I realised I prefer communal locker rooms! I just walk in, find an open locker, get changed sticking stuff in lock it and go. Efficiency.

I was wondering how you ended up with a woman walking right past you naked? What's the layout - were you coming out of individual cubicle? Is this common where you are?

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/09/2025 01:57

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 01:21

Hello! Another night owl 😄 I really should be in bed.

No, I don’t have any connection to the GLP. I am familiar with what they do (I am a lawyer), but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who works there. Why did you think I might? I’m sorry, I haven’t properly read your messages yet so it may be that you’ve explained

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Because of the tone and subject matter. Have a look at The Guardian article for instance with Mrs Maugham, though I think it may have edited since the paper version. My previous posts explain better.

I wonder if you went to a single sex school. I have never come across a woman with your indifference to male and female behaviour. I am glad you are aware that this is unusual.

Too late now..off to bed.

AnSolas · 09/09/2025 07:29

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 09/09/2025 00:43

I’ve only seen a single changing area, but I haven’t explored the facilities much, I just go straight for the first available cubicle I see. There are signs to male and female toilets, which surprised me given the changing facilities appeared to be unisex, but perhaps it’s because the men’s toilets have urinals.

I suspect many of the men who use that leisure centre may be gay as it’s in a neighbourhood which is popular with gay men.

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Its your go to pool

You would opt for mixed sex spaces and you have never checked with staff nor checked signage for a mixed sex changing area?

You are suprised there are single sex toilets.

Then you read this:

AnSolas · Yesterday 05:58
other leisure centre pool I sometimes go to only has unisex changing facilities (I think) but it’s all cubicles rather than communal. I much prefer that.
You use another pool with a changing area and dont know if it has WSSS with cubicles?
But picked the mixed sex area without investigation?
You may prefer the mixed sex space but are more likely to suffer from sexual abuse in an area where men are. This is because men who like to spy with cameras have better access.
^https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404294-police-agree-mixed-sex-changing-is-a-problem-bbc^
Here the police are objecting to mixed sex at the design stage as they recognise that giving access will result in criminal acts.^

And think :

Gay men

Police agree mixed sex changing is a problem - BBC | Mumsnet

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo]] Interesting (and heartening) to see the police...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404294-police-agree-mixed-sex-changing-is-a-problem-bbc