Posting upton’s old photos and name on twitter

[Biggadyboom]

Look I’ve been in these discussions since before this forum existed. You don’t need to break it down for me. I peaked in 2018.

But the endless sharing of upton’s name accompanied by photos and horrible comments about him and his wife is not nice. It is totally is transphobia. It’s horrible.

I could kind of understand the point of it, if it was just the name being shared.

But equally the court has ruled that Upton has a right to privacy. I thought it was all about respecting court’s rulings?

but the sharing of private photos (presumably grabbed from social media) and especially their wedding photo with insults to both of them and speculation about their marriage is awful and will not help their be a resolution to this debate. It polarises it even more and is transphobia.

fair enough, don’t let Upton change the rules of the country and workplace based on personal beliefs . But that doesn’t involve posting personal information and photos , insults and horrible speculation.

or are we just going low now?

A few thoughts:

One, these actions and comments do not sound like most of the posters on FWR who go out of their way to remain calm and measured even in light of aggressive provocation from TRAs.

Never would I have assumed all those X posts came from MN. The arguments presented here go somewhat beyond ’pervert’ fgs and instead tend to be thoroughly and thoughtfully worked out.

Two, it is not transphobic ie an irrational fear of trans people, to post photos of DrU (which cannot be private if strangers had access to them), though ‘mob justice’ on X is not pleasant.

Three, if you wanted to canvass others views on what was happening on X, it’d have been helpful not to start with such an accusatory, finger pointing tone.

Do I approve of people on X posting those photos and comments? No, I don’t. Neither do I approve of DrU instigating a witch hunt against a nurse because she didn’t want to change in front of a man.

Are you going to acknowledge that people on Twitter are getting “carried away” and that it is not people here?

I think the opposite. He's legally changed his name and that should be that. However the freely available photos of him 'presenting' as a man are totally fair game. IMO he's a man called Beth.

Your longevity on this site is neither here nor there, it doesn’t confer you with the privilege to post here in a provocative way, accusing others of behaviour you find offensive on another SM outlet. Then when you receive pushback and are asked to justify your comments you accuse people of lying. I would say that’s looking for a fight.

If you would like an adult discussion then you need to show others some respect and behave like an adult yourself.

Possibly but it’s a really high bar to get a hearing held privately as it’s a cornerstone of the system that justice is seen to be done. I think, or more reasonably hope, that the negative publicity surrounding this trial will cause organisations more so than individuals to really think about what policies they have in place and what the impacts could be if a woman claims unfair discrimination or harassment as a result of them.

in this case, the way the defence has been run has been appalling and is partly the reason for the adverse publicity. People have reacted to the demeanour of the witnesses, not just Upton, and the behaviour of Counsel.

Yeah totally agree with that too

but two wrongs doesn’t make a right.

calling them « pervert and enabler » under their wedding photo is transphobia.

the petty nastiness will just feed the narrative that terfs are evil transphobes

i think folk are getting carried away and I stand by thinking it’ll peak people in the opposite direction.

it’s certainly stopped me and made me think.

So let me get this right. You cone in here to scold women for stuff there is no proof they have done? Why? Do you also go on Reddit etc and scold transpeople for their doxing and threats or do you save that for women?

Go and post comments under the posts on Twitter then. What use is it here?

I agree, OP. There is some justification for posting Upton's real name, but insulting jokes and especially dragging his wife and parents into it, are gratuitously cruel and, in some cases, do actually cross the line into transphobia.

I think it is legitimate to raise the issue here on MN. Partly because, as you say, discussion is possible here and not in the Twitter cesspit. But also because there probably is some crossover.

The same kind of flat-out cruelty and intrusiveness towards Upton's wife and parents has been present on several MN threads about the tribunal (from just a minority of posters of course). I have posted a couple of comments on those threads in response to insulting or speculative personal comments about Upton's relatives and counsel, and I have reported a couple of posts that speculated about his parents.

We all know the horrible strain of being falsely accused of bigotry and transphobia just for defending women's rights; we all feel infuriated when people glibly speak of problems on 'both sides' as a way of sidestepping the sheer aggression and oppressiveness of the enforcement of trans orthodoxy. So it is really upsetting to find yourself part of a crowd that doesn't call out those instances where legit anger crosses over into gleeful cruelty.

Of course Upton deserves consequences, including regulatory consequences, for the things that have been revealed in the tribunal. But a lot of what plays out online is just to do with the rageful tribalism of social media dynamics. The truth is that we all feel just a bit better, in the short term, when we get the chance for a little cathartic hit of nastiness. But I don't think it does any of us any good. It doesn't help Peggie; it doesn't help the GC cause more generally.

It doesn't even really help the people who seek catharsis in this way, because it doesn't really drain our anger. It just makes us ruminate more and more painfully. One thing that can sometimes happen is that people posting with excessive cruelty or speculative intrusion into others' privacy do actually feel some guilt about it. So when they are called out they feel defensive and double down on an acid sense of resentment and fury. That's not a good way to feel.

I disagree with your definition of transphobia and I'm entirely sick of people throwing around the word transphobia when people don't agree with them. You could have gone with with 'invasion of privacy' or 'unfair targeting of the wife', but nope, you chose the oh so overused and incorrectly used it no longer has a meaning 'transphobia'. And you haven't answered my question below yet. I wonder why?

"So what word do you use to define men who watch nonconsenting women undress knowing full well they are uncomfortable with it? What word do you use to describe men like this who try to get women fired for complaining about undressing in front of them? What word do you use to describe those that support this behaviour?"

It was me that talked about your new username, don't blame any one else more scolding for the many off the back of the actions of the few.

I change usernames frequently too, but my point still stands.

The usernames I use on this board clearly show a history of support for women, children and FWR.

You could have done the same, I just think it's interesting that you posted this under a new username with no history attached. That's not troll hunting, it's just pointing out that your OP appears in the same vein as the usual TRA scolds. Something that a regular reader here would be aware of.

‘jeez you guys. Have the discussion without the troll hunting will you.’

Jeez you guys, have the discussion the way I want it or I’ll have a tantrum. There, fixed it for you.

@CrackingOn50 Sweep came to Lord’s with me last week (photo will appear). Sorry to hijack the thread 🙏

OK but the narrative will always be that terfs are evil transphobes because it is our failure to believe that trans identifying men are women that is considered evil and transphobic.

Perhaps if trans activists hadn't spent the last decade calling us evil and transphobic for holding perfectly reasonable and lawful opinions, saying that it is transphobic to call Dr Upton a pervert might have more impact today. Although I do think his behaviour suggests that he is a pervert.

I didn’t read it that way all so please don’t apologise!

Fair enough dr blackbird, thank you for your thoughts

i was not intending to be accusatory, I was assuming a cross over. Plenty have said that in their experience is none, and fair enough, that may be true for some and not for others . I apologise if that notion offended and would like to just genuinely have a discussion about whether the posts on twitter go too far . In my opinion they do, two wrongs don’t make a right and they damage the GC movement.

thank you to those having a discussion about it. I appreciate it.

I thought we got past "Be Kind" at least a couple of years ago, didn't we?

So by that logic, the TRA attacking women on Twitter and Reddit are misogynistic sexist pigs? Have you gone over back to Reddit to tell them that? If not, why not?

Thank you for being far more articulate than I have been on this thread!

I do think there is a distinction to be made here between the individual and the group.

to bring in other examples, an immigrant who rapes a child is a bad person. It does not follow that immigrants are bad people.

Dr Upton, as the tribunal has demonstrated, has behaved in some very unpleasant ways. I don’t think anyone deserves the level of online abuse he is no doubt getting but I am in no doubt it is due to his behaviour and personal characteristics NOT that he believes he is a woman.

there’s a distinction.

calling them « pervert and enabler » under their wedding photo is transphobia.

What is transphobic? Upton insists on changing in the female changing room when the women there object to his presence and kept notes about the women who waited until he left to get changed. You don't think that the behaviour of a predator or abuser? I certainly do.

Regardless of gender identity, a man tracking who will and won't get changed in front of him is a pervert. Any man who will not leave the women's changing room when asked to by those using it legitimately is a creep.

Do we need to mention Pete again? There is no meaningful difference between hypothetical Pete and Theodore Upton.

I know nothing about Upton's wife, but she has my sympathies for having to live with such person.

I get very tired of being asked to performatively denounce other people’s posts. It happens quite a lot here.

To the extent that He has the same right to privacy as anyone else in his position, I take your point OP.

Unfortunately his lawyers made his appearance and the recentness of his transition relevant to the case by claiming that nobody knew his sex.

Isn't Dr Upton's father a work colleague of another prominent TRA? I can't recall the details- totally valid to discuss such family links in my opinion, and family are often widely discussed in publicity about court cases.

I agree that twitter is dreadful for pile ons and creating division. I left a year ago and am happier not knowing what goes on there. I can fully imagine that some people on there have scented blood wrt Upton, and are gunning for them. That’s Twitter / Musk’s problem to resolve.

I think , from following the threads here and reading the papers, that Upton is a classic example of an entitled arse. I wouldn’t wish a social media pile on on anybody. I can see how they have brought the situation on themselves , but I can also well imagine that they are very surprised that people aren’t “being kind”. Because they live in a bubble which has been popped.

I agree it’s better to take the high moral ground (which Upton did not do - third spaces).

I think it’s good for MN to discuss why we should be seen to take the high ground. Eg Impact on anonymity claims for future cases as raised by PP. Also I am GC but do not want to be associated with rascism, the Right. And the twitter mess described in this thread is not sometime I want to be associated with as a GC feminist.

But OP thinking it’s reasonable to blame twitter pile on on Mumsnet posters is bollocks.