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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posting upton’s old photos and name on twitter

621 replies

Biggadyboom · 02/09/2025 08:22

Look I’ve been in these discussions since before this forum existed. You don’t need to break it down for me. I peaked in 2018.

But the endless sharing of upton’s name accompanied by photos and horrible comments about him and his wife is not nice. It is totally is transphobia. It’s horrible.

I could kind of understand the point of it, if it was just the name being shared.

But equally the court has ruled that Upton has a right to privacy. I thought it was all about respecting court’s rulings?

but the sharing of private photos (presumably grabbed from social media) and especially their wedding photo with insults to both of them and speculation about their marriage is awful and will not help their be a resolution to this debate. It polarises it even more and is transphobia.

fair enough, don’t let Upton change the rules of the country and workplace based on personal beliefs . But that doesn’t involve posting personal information and photos , insults and horrible speculation.

or are we just going low now?

OP posts:
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12
Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:08

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:00

'As I said in my initial post regarding JK Rowling's transphobic posts, they are implicitly framed. Plausible deniability & all that'

For an accusation of 'implicitly' saying that 'all trans people are predatory sex fetishists' to be considered valid, she would have to have shown that she was not just talking about male people who are sex fetishists.

For example, the poster picked out this quote :

"Rowling revealed she is a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault and said this led her to sympathize with women who had "concerns around single-sex spaces." She argued against throwing "open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he's a woman.”

And made this interpretation:

'Dog whistle for trans people as deluded pedatory sex abusers'

Notice how dishonest this interpretation is considering they accused her of saying 'ALL' trans people. This quote they have chosen refers only to men. Explicitly she is saying that some male people with transgender identities may cause female people harm, in other words this includes distress, by being in that space.

She may believe that any male person who would enter a female single sex space is there to cause the female people in the space harm intentionally, but she could also believe something else.

The interpretation of 'Dog whistle for trans people as deluded pedatory sex abusers' is taking an absolutist, catastrophised view and assuming the worst in words that don't explicitly say what has been claimed.

In any case, this doesn't support the accusation of 'all'.

Here is another example in this quote:

Rowling published a new novel titled "Troubled Blood" under the pseudonym Robert Galbraith. The book, which revolved around a male serial killer who dresses like a woman, was accused of being anti-trans.

It was disappointing that Rowling was propagating a "long-standing and hurtful presentation of trans women as a threat," a spokesperson for Mermaids, a charity that supports trans children, said to CNN. Rowling, meanwhile, said the book "was loosely based" on real killers.

The interpretation was:

'Dog whistle for trans people as mentally ill abusers of women'

Did the poster even read this book? I did . And many others did. Perhaps the poster would like to know that there have been male people in the past, who did not have a transgender identity, who used dressing to look like a female person to gain access to victims or to get close to victims. It does happen. The Cambridge Murderer (there is a thread on this active on FWR at the moment) did this.

So, which is more likely in this supposedly 'implicit' statement that 'all trans people are predatory sex fetishists'? That she referenced real life examples for her book (the perpetrator was didn't have a transgender identity by the way!) or that she thinks 'all trans people are predatory sex fetishists'?

Oh... and... the character was male. So again, this does not support the flawed accusation at all.

In fact, the implication from her character would be that 'some male people will present in a way that will gain the trust of their intended victim' which is true. And if someone wanted to make a negative implicit meaning, it would be that 'all men are predators' which is also not true.

Then there is this example:

"When Scotland's new Hate Crime and Public Order Act went into effect in April, Rowling tried to bait them into arresting her with posts online. The law criminalizes "stirring up hatred" against people based on their race, religion, disability, sexuality or gender identity. By passing the law, Scotland "placed higher value on the feelings of men performing their idea of femaleness, however misogynistically or opportunistically, than on the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls," Rowling said in the thread on X. If anything she wrote qualified as an offense under the new law, "I look forward to being arrested when I return to the birthplace of the Scottish Enlightenment," Rowling said."_

The interpretation of this quote was:

'Dog whistle for trans people as deluded/mentally ill predatory abusers of women'

Nope. The tweet that I bolded in that quote refers to 'male' people with transgender identities. Any 'implicit' interpretation that tweet would also be reasonable to be said to be only limiting that tweet to male people who demanded to access female single sex provisions. By provisions, I refer to anything designated as being just for female people.

Again, it is not about female people with transgender identities at all. Because those female people are included in the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls. She has generally made that clear so it would be a deliberate bad faith interpretation to assume she included female people in that quoted tweet.

Then finally the quote:

"Rowling posted t, accusing Khelif of being a man who was "enjoying the distress of a woman he's just punched in the head."_

The interpretation

'Dog whistle for mentally ill trans person who enjoys abusing of women'

Again, as others have already said, Khelif is not transgender at all. Nothing to do with trans people. Khelif is a male boxer with a DSD that led to him being erroneously listed at 'female' in his passport.

Plus there is nothing in that tweet that says that Khelif is mentally ill either. So that is another falsity there too. No one has to be mentally ill to enjoy a woman's distress. They may be. But they also have a just as much likelihood of not being mentally ill.

TL/DR: There was nothing in that linked article that stated or even implied that 'all trans people are predatory sex fetishists'. It is not even logical to make this point when considering there are female people with transgender identities as well who JK Rowling, nor any pro-woman poster on this board that I know of, would categorise as being a predatory sex fetishist.

However, it does show how very biased and unreasonable some people's interpretations of JK Rowling's tweets can be.

Edited

See @Howseitgoin .

When you need to defend your position or the link you posted, you open up engagement because people then can read in detail what you think and engage with it.

I look forward to you actually engaging properly with the issues you post about in the future.

BundleBoogie · 04/09/2025 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I’ve heard that improving gut bacteria can also help with brain fog and even low mood. PP seems to be not a very happy chappy and all this talk of ‘dog whistles’ and chastising women is not sounding very coherent.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:09

Of course, these issues are having to be discussed all because some male people felt entitled to demand access to female single sex provisions.

Imagine being a man and feeling that entitled.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:10

BundleBoogie · 04/09/2025 09:09

I’ve heard that improving gut bacteria can also help with brain fog and even low mood. PP seems to be not a very happy chappy and all this talk of ‘dog whistles’ and chastising women is not sounding very coherent.

And Vitamen B apparently.

DeanElderberry · 04/09/2025 09:15

I'm grateful to be told that the 'awful things JKR wrote' claims go back to Troubled Blood. I've read it, so I knew it couldn't be that . . . .

I have said before that I think the narrow-mindedness of TRAs relates to their lack of exposure to books and ideas outside their bubble. Light fiction from a century or more ago, easy to read and entertaining, is full of stuff that is now unfamiliar. That is useful when developing the mental charts for understanding the wider world.

Howseitgoin · 04/09/2025 09:16

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:08

See @Howseitgoin .

When you need to defend your position or the link you posted, you open up engagement because people then can read in detail what you think and engage with it.

I look forward to you actually engaging properly with the issues you post about in the future.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Rationalization

Rationalization

Offering false or inauthentic excuses for our claim because we know the real reasons are much less persuasive or more embarrassing to share, or harsher than the manufactured ones given.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?/logicalfallacies/Rationalization

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:18

So? What about rationalisation?

What is the point of your link? Give examples (clearly formatted) and clearly discuss your points.

DeanElderberry · 04/09/2025 09:23

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:10

And Vitamen B apparently.

Yup, the cheapest multi-B taken last thing at night, preferably with a small glass of full fat milk, at least 2 hours after last drink of tea or anything alcoholic.

I suspect a lot of people are B (or at least Thiamine) deficient after Covid.

BettyBooper · 04/09/2025 09:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:25

DeanElderberry · 04/09/2025 09:23

Yup, the cheapest multi-B taken last thing at night, preferably with a small glass of full fat milk, at least 2 hours after last drink of tea or anything alcoholic.

I suspect a lot of people are B (or at least Thiamine) deficient after Covid.

Great advice that.

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2025 09:31

In another moment down went Alice after it, never once considering how in the world she was to get out again.

The rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunnel for some way, and then dipped suddenly down, so suddenly that Alice had not a moment to think about stopping herself before she found herself falling down a very deep well.

Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next. First, she tried to look down and make out what she was coming to, but it was too dark to see anything; then she looked at the sides of the well, and noticed that they were filled with cupboards and book-shelves; here and there she saw maps and pictures hung upon pegs. She took down a jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was labelled `ORANGE MARMALADE', but to her great disappointment it was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for fear of killing somebody, so managed to put it into one of the cupboards as she fell past it.

Well!' thought Alice to herself, after such a fall as this, I shall think nothing of tumbling down stairs! How brave they'll all think me at home! Why, I wouldn't say anything about it, even if I fell off the top of the house!' (Which was very likely true.)

Down, down, down. Would the fall never come to an end! I wonder how many miles I've fallen by this time?' she said aloud. I must be getting somewhere near the centre of the earth. Let me see: that would be four thousand miles down, I think' (for, you see, Alice had learnt several things of this sort in her lessons in the schoolroom, and though this was not a very good opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no one to listen to her, still it was good practice to say it over) `yes, that's about the right distance--but then I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I've got to?' (Alice had no idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but thought they were nice grand words to say.)

Presently she began again. I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth! How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downward! The Antipathies, I think<span class="line-through">' (she was rather glad there was no one listening, this time, as it didn't sound at all the right word) but I shall have to ask them what the name of the country is, you know. Please, Ma'am, is this New Zealand or Australia?' (and she tried to curtsey as she spoke--fancy curtseying as you're falling through the air! Do you think you could manage it?) `And what an ignorant little girl she'll think me for asking! No, it'll never do to ask: perhaps I shall see it written up somewhere.'

Down, down, down. There was nothing else to do, so Alice soon began talking again. Dinah'll miss me very much to-night, I should think!' (Dinah was the cat.) I hope they'll remember her saucer of milk at tea-time. Dinah my dear! I wish you were down here with me! There are no mice in the air, I'm afraid, but you might catch a bat, and that's very like a mouse, you know. But do cats eat bats, I wonder?' And here Alice began to get rather sleepy, and went on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of way, Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?' and sometimes, Do bats eat cats?' for, you see, as she couldn't answer either question, it didn't much matter which way she put it. She felt that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very earnestly, `Now, Dinah, tell me the truth: did you ever eat a bat?' when suddenly, thump! thump! down she came upon a heap of sticks and dry leaves, and the fall was over.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well Betty, I think we can say it is a lazy discussion style to keep posting links about 'fallacies' without even a discussion on what the poster is referring to clearly.

When someone's posting style reflects their own confused thinking, it really does highlight that confusion when they don't engage with positive intent. I think it could be considered a bullying tactic, but it is definitely a ego trip for someone to simply post a link and declare they have answered discussed points without actually engaging with further information.

Maybe it works on certain forums where everyone agrees and just applauds that poster.

If someone's evidence that they post is weak, they should be still prepared to defend it thoughtfully. This poster has been shown to have such weak evidence to support confused and contorted points that all the poster has left is posting links about fallacies with no contextual discussion. It really is lazy.

teawamutu · 04/09/2025 09:34

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:18

So? What about rationalisation?

What is the point of your link? Give examples (clearly formatted) and clearly discuss your points.

Edited

I'd assumed it was an admission.

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2025 09:34

I don't know what happened with the formatting there, but I like the quote text!

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:35

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2025 09:31

In another moment down went Alice after it, never once considering how in the world she was to get out again.

The rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunnel for some way, and then dipped suddenly down, so suddenly that Alice had not a moment to think about stopping herself before she found herself falling down a very deep well.

Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next. First, she tried to look down and make out what she was coming to, but it was too dark to see anything; then she looked at the sides of the well, and noticed that they were filled with cupboards and book-shelves; here and there she saw maps and pictures hung upon pegs. She took down a jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was labelled `ORANGE MARMALADE', but to her great disappointment it was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for fear of killing somebody, so managed to put it into one of the cupboards as she fell past it.

Well!' thought Alice to herself, after such a fall as this, I shall think nothing of tumbling down stairs! How brave they'll all think me at home! Why, I wouldn't say anything about it, even if I fell off the top of the house!' (Which was very likely true.)

Down, down, down. Would the fall never come to an end! I wonder how many miles I've fallen by this time?' she said aloud. I must be getting somewhere near the centre of the earth. Let me see: that would be four thousand miles down, I think' (for, you see, Alice had learnt several things of this sort in her lessons in the schoolroom, and though this was not a very good opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no one to listen to her, still it was good practice to say it over) `yes, that's about the right distance--but then I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I've got to?' (Alice had no idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but thought they were nice grand words to say.)

Presently she began again. I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth! How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downward! The Antipathies, I think<span class="line-through">' (she was rather glad there was no one listening, this time, as it didn't sound at all the right word) but I shall have to ask them what the name of the country is, you know. Please, Ma'am, is this New Zealand or Australia?' (and she tried to curtsey as she spoke--fancy curtseying as you're falling through the air! Do you think you could manage it?) `And what an ignorant little girl she'll think me for asking! No, it'll never do to ask: perhaps I shall see it written up somewhere.'

Down, down, down. There was nothing else to do, so Alice soon began talking again. Dinah'll miss me very much to-night, I should think!' (Dinah was the cat.) I hope they'll remember her saucer of milk at tea-time. Dinah my dear! I wish you were down here with me! There are no mice in the air, I'm afraid, but you might catch a bat, and that's very like a mouse, you know. But do cats eat bats, I wonder?' And here Alice began to get rather sleepy, and went on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of way, Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?' and sometimes, Do bats eat cats?' for, you see, as she couldn't answer either question, it didn't much matter which way she put it. She felt that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very earnestly, `Now, Dinah, tell me the truth: did you ever eat a bat?' when suddenly, thump! thump! down she came upon a heap of sticks and dry leaves, and the fall was over.

yep

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:36

teawamutu · 04/09/2025 09:34

I'd assumed it was an admission.

Probably. We are talking about a projection specialist after all.

AnSolas · 04/09/2025 09:38

DeanElderberry · 04/09/2025 09:15

I'm grateful to be told that the 'awful things JKR wrote' claims go back to Troubled Blood. I've read it, so I knew it couldn't be that . . . .

I have said before that I think the narrow-mindedness of TRAs relates to their lack of exposure to books and ideas outside their bubble. Light fiction from a century or more ago, easy to read and entertaining, is full of stuff that is now unfamiliar. That is useful when developing the mental charts for understanding the wider world.

Aaaaand the google culture.

Back in the day when google was "just" a search engine one had to examine what results came up. Sometimes the result had to be critically analysed as something unexpected popped up. Now its organised to give the what is the most popular (or paid for) page.

So it results in outsourcing of thinking. AI will continue that trend.

Add that education and schooling are different.

I remember fondly one teacher who enjoyed allowing us students to explore texts and ideas to expand our education and would finish with a reminder that to sucessfully pass exams the answer had to reflect the answer sheet marking scheme.

And the other less fondly who had a melt down if anyone raised a point not covered by the prepnote for the class. But looking back I can see that part of that was the young teacher lacked teaching the teaching experience.

AnSolas · 04/09/2025 09:39

DeanElderberry · 04/09/2025 09:23

Yup, the cheapest multi-B taken last thing at night, preferably with a small glass of full fat milk, at least 2 hours after last drink of tea or anything alcoholic.

I suspect a lot of people are B (or at least Thiamine) deficient after Covid.

Good tip👍

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:50

Should we now start posting links to dictionaries with meanings for 'hyperbole'?

Because the use of saying posters here and JK Rowling are saying the trans people are all predatory sex fetishists is nothing but catastrophising hyperbole. It is a dishonest attempt to feel justified in demonising all the posters on this board who are prioritising female people's needs above gender identity.

Oh.. sorry... the tactic is just to post a link and nothing else. That when people react, take that opportunity to deride and belittle.

I mean, fuck. Imagine if a poster came onto a FWR thread to discuss their opinion that they think might differ from others and didn't post in that very first post that they believed feminists were 'anti-trans', 'hysterical' while posting an article that was only based on anecdotes which the poster later belittled people for posting.

Imagine instead, that poster posted with thoughtful outline of their opinions and reacted by further explanation.

Wouldn't that be a pleasant change?

Howseitgoin · 04/09/2025 09:56

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 09:18

So? What about rationalisation?

What is the point of your link? Give examples (clearly formatted) and clearly discuss your points.

Edited

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Sealioning - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

DustyWindowsills · 04/09/2025 09:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2025 10:14

Alice opened the door and found that it led into a small passage, not much larger than a rat-hole: she knelt down and looked along the passage into the loveliest garden you ever saw. How she longed to get out of that dark hall, and wander about amongst the beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains, but she could not even get her head through the doorway; ‘and even if my head would go through,’ thought poor Alice, ’it would be of very little use without my shoulders.

Oh, how I wish I could shut up like a telescope! I think I could, If I only know how to begin.’ For, you see, so many out-of-the-way things had happened lately, that Alice had begun to think that very few things indeed were really impossible. There seemed to be no use in waiting by the little door, so she went back to the table, half hoping she might find another key on it, or at any rate a book of rules for shutting people up like telescopes: this time she found a little bottle on it, (‘which certainly was not here before,’ said Alice,) and round the neck of the bottles was a paper label, with the words ‘DRINK ME’ beautifully printed on it in large letters.

It was all very well to say ‘Drink me,’ but the wise little Alice was not going to do that in a hurry . ‘No, I’ll look first,’ she said, ‘and see whether it’s marked “poison” or not’; for she had read several nice little histories about children who had got burnt, and eaten up by wild beasts and other unpleasant things, all because they would not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them: such as that a red-hot poker will burn you if you hold it too long; and that If you cut your finger very deeply with a knife, it usually bleeds; and she had never forgotten that, if you drink much from a bottle marked ‘poison,’ it is almost certain to disagree with you, sooner or later.

However this bottle was not marked ‘poison,’ so Alice ventured to taste it, and finding it very nice, (it had, in fact, a sort of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast turkey, toffee, and hot buttered toast,) she very soon finished it off.

Puberty Blockers and Hormones didn't have the words 'poison' on the box.

Alice was unlucky, as she didn't have the benefit of numerous studies of the effects of 'drink me' but decided to have a go anyway, just because it didn't say poison.

However in the real world Howie fell down the rabbit hole and decided not to listen to NHS whistleblowers, reputable investigative journalists like Hannah Barnes and to an independent report by Hilary Cass.

Instead Howie posts links to vox and wiki articles about motte and bailey and other conspiracy theories and wonders why everyone goes

"stop talking bollocks".

Alice and Howie have lots in common.

ThatCyanCat · 04/09/2025 10:16

DOG WHISTLE

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 10:33

Do we think we are now in the realm of fallacy fallacy ?

Helleofabore · 04/09/2025 10:45

If you came to this board with any intention of having positive engagement you would not have posted this:

Clearly 'you can't always tell' given harassment of CIS women who don't appear 'sufficiently feminine' is on the rise as a consequence of anti trans hysteria. Seems the private spaces for women cause has been more counterproductive to their safety.

Therefore unless a person is being abusive might be more productive to mind one's own stereotypes.

With a link to Vox with anecdotes (remember how many times you have since tried to discred others posting anecdotes- should we mirror back your bullying comments? ) that politically weaponises female people’s experiences against female people’s needs for single sex provisions.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5397900-what-would-you-actually-do-if-you-saw-a-transperson-in-the-wrong-toiletchanging-room-for-their-sex?page=38&reply=146680515

You can continue to post your links of disengagement all you like. But readers will just see your lack of contribution rather than getting to understand your opinion. But I guess we should have just taken note of this first post because it laid out your intentions clearly.

Lesson learned. Plus ca change.