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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Kalalily · 25/07/2025 10:57

@BezMills
Fifer, you are hilarious 😆
I am seriously wounded by the unquestioning affirmation of my trans identifying child by medics (and everyone else) so it takes a lot to make me laugh

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2025 10:58

If you work in IT for the NHS it's probably because you are too shite to work anywhere else.

The pay for public sector IT are attroious. Even for intelligence jobs. The only place there is money is as a contractor to the public sector.

It boils my piss and it leaves us vulnerable as a nation as it's a matter of national security.

Putting your own it expert in the witness box effectively against an expert in the field isn't going to come out well for NHS Fife.

maltravers · 25/07/2025 10:58

nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:52

He was chosen to do this by NHSF management because in the past he'd had some knowledge of IT forensics. In other words, cutting corners.

And presumably as “their man” he will follow their policy and their lead.

GCITC · 25/07/2025 10:58

CE doing an excellent job right now.

Making everything sound much simpler than JR.

I can't believe Fife were still willing to take DU at face value when they are in the position they are in.

Largesso · 25/07/2025 10:58

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 25/07/2025 10:49

I'm perhaps being a little slow this morning, but why are they questioning PD about DUs phone notes? I thought PD would be the witness they questioned about whether due process had been followed in regards to the order to submit emails and JB the guy that should be questioned over phones?

I think JR has called this witness to challenge JB who, it appears, wrote a witness statement as a witness which called into question the veracity of the submission into disclosure of the logging of DU's 'contemporaneous' notes.

This will cover the incidents where SP removed herself, described as contemporaneous, and the incidents of patient safety which DU said he had not noted at the time. When he did make notes he couldn't remember dates etc. They knew the date of one of the incidents through other means.

The implication is that DU has doctored (😉) his notes to suit his narrative.

The reason the handover of his phone was rejected was because DU offered it up but clearly under certain conditions ie only to NHS Fife person.

This is made more problematic as it seems the FIfe person didn't have access to the phone himself bit coached DU over a zoom or such how to download meta data ( I think).

This is not, therefore, about disclosure instructions of failure of those. I don't thinkk they need to interrogate that in the hearing as its quite clear it is a monumental fuck up. It only becomes an issue if it is relevant to whether a witness is lying or not, as KS may have done, but I don't think NC needs to prove this forensically. It is one of many aspects that undermine KS credibility and by no means the most important one.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 10:59

PD - yes CE next best, in person you doing it
PD - wasn't asked
CE not a critisism, just another option, next best, you access files
PD - would have been beneficial
CE - next best, sit next to DU and watch what's done
PD - yes, next best but time limited

Jitrenka · 25/07/2025 11:00

Every single one of these people is so bent.. like you dont believe DU tried to mislead.. these people actually think hes a saint!!

maltravers · 25/07/2025 11:00

“I believe DU” - you’re not here as a jury member or character witness mate.

FeedbackProvider · 25/07/2025 11:00

JR is fuming.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:00

CE - next best, remote access to DU files
PD - ?
CE - would have been 4th option
PD - i believe DU
CE - but an option
PD - yes CE next option, record teams call
PD - yes
CE - didn't happen
PD - no
CE - you went for the 6th best option
PD - my assistence asked for just to get note

6th best option - ouch!

BezMills · 25/07/2025 11:00

From TT

CE - you accept its one explanation that DU is misleading
PD - I don't believe
CE - JB's report 1643 - scsh shows note in google account, dialogue box too, we see coloured box says hi elizabeth, can edited info sit behind that?
PD - edited time stamp? Yes that would be behind
CE - box 3, 3 sc sh side by side, cropped tightly
PD - yes
CE wider shots would show edit dates
PD - no they weren't there
CE - a little on how this exercise conducted. Propositions, agree/disagree. first most reliable way to ensure reliable/ integrthy - a forensic investigation

PD - yes
CE next best, in person you doing it
PD - wasn't asked
CE not a critisism, just another option, next best, you access files
PD - would have been beneficial
CE - next best, sit next to DU and watch what's done
PD - yes, next best but time limited

Fifer : so we're awready that far doon the league table of 'forensic backgroond' proper weys tae dae yer fuckin job - it's Hamilton Academical territory here.

CE - next best, remote access to DU files
PD - ?
CE - would have been 4th option
PD - i believe DU
CE - but an option
PD - yes

Fifer : Stirling Albion

CE next option, record teams call
PD - yes
CE - didn't happen
PD - no
CE - you went for the 6th best option

Fifer : Thornton Star Under 17s

PD - my assistence asked for just to get note

Fifer : can a jist remind the court. Forensic Backgroond. Ma [redacted] [redacted] eh [redacted] [redacted] [redacted]

maltravers · 25/07/2025 11:01

I’m liking CE so far.

CapeGooseberry · 25/07/2025 11:01

I step away for a few hours to find a new thread has come and almost gone…

Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 11:01

The whole thing sounds as dodgy as fuck.

Chariothorses · 25/07/2025 11:01

Morning all! I am out most of today so can't copy over the Herald blog, but thought you might find this bit useful!
10:52am
It's hard to keep up with this without seeing the analysis by Mr Borthwick that the laywers are asking Mr Donaldson about
What we do have is the content of Dr Upton's 'weird incident' notes as they appear in the bundle. This is our Political Editor Andrew Learmonth's transcript.
A weird incident. 26/08/23
Nurse Sandie Peggy walked into changing room while I was changing. Looked taken aback. I said, hey. She said, hi. Then abruptly walked out. Once I got changed, I left the changing room and she was waiting outside. She then entered the changing room despite having witnessed another doctor enter. In the meantime, I know from hearing this other doctor mention it that she and the nurse had a conversation in the changing room. All very odd. Can't help but feel slightly off, upset, put off by this, disappointed as appears that she chose not to enter because of me and didn't think I belonged there. Sad times.
25/10/23
She did it again. Sandie was in the changing room, and I walked in Christina, consultant came in too. Christina, and I chatting. Presumably Sandie left, as I then found her waiting outside to go back. And once I left, didn't even say hi. Weird.
18/12/23
working nights. One week, eye contact. One acknowledge my presence, not a direct conversation. Yet I can feel this dismissal hostility. Needed to ask Sandy a question about child patient left before being seen as she triaged him, couldn't find her. HCA, Rihanna offered to look for her. Both came back. Rihanna asked Sandy of any concerns. Were both in front of me. Sandy didn't look at or otherwise engage with me. Responded. She had no concerns. I said, thanks. I needed to know for the letter, she did not acknowledge Me, either through words or eye contact, and left her area.
25/12/23
Leaving shifts at midnight. I say goodbye to everyone, including in rhesus, where Sandie is, she starts at 7pm so it's the middle of her shift, me and Shwayts and Fiona ENP, in the changing room. We're all chatting. Sandie comes in, chats a bit to Fiona. I think this is weird, as Sandie hates being in the changing room with me, but whatever Shwayts leaves.
I go to the bathroom. Fiona leaves. Leave toilet, and she's still hovering. Start washing my hands, and she says she doesn't think it's appropriate that I use the changing room. Says she feels intimidated by me. Says this is woman's changing room, and lots of others feel this way.
I explain, I'm very sorry she feels intimidated but I've been told I can change here. She keeps telling me she finds me intimidating. Says she understands I'm going through some process, but I'm not a woman and can't be in here.
She asked me, What are your chromosomes? I explained, I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I'm a woman, and I'm allowed to use this space if she has concerns, could she please raise them fromally as do not think this most appropriate time or place for this conversation.
She continues to tell me she's intimidated. Lots of people are talking about it and are all intimidated. She tells me I'm not a woman. I say, no one else has raised concern with me, but I told that if they had concerns they should raise them formally through the proper channels.
She stated, maybe she's only one who feels able to. she tells me she won't change in front of men. Tells me she's a bad history of men. I say, I understand and sympathise. She cuts me off and says, I don't understand and I don't sympathise enough, or I wouldn't' be changing here.
I again state I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I do not want to have this conversation here. I don't think it's appropriate. If she or others have concerns, they should raise it formally. I tell her, I'm not sure what I can do to resolve this. I'm sorry she feels intimidated.
She tells me I should not change here. She tells me woman to have a right to feel safe. She says it's just like that person in prisons.
I again, tell her this is not an appropriate time. I do not wish to talk to her about it now. I don't think a discussion between two people the end of a long shift is productive or the best way to resolve this.
She will not let it go. We go back and forth a few times, each time I repeat my previous statement about appropriate channels and formal conversation. Eventually, she tells me she will raise this.
I leave. I am distraught. I immediately go to find Elspeth. I explained through tears what's happened in the background. I explained, I understand her fears. I sympathised, but I feel attacked and cornered.
I explained, this is the first time I've experienced anything like this in person.
Elspeth tells me she is sorry, that I am not a difficult person, nor am I being difficult. Elspeth is kind and supportive. We agree she will speak to Kate Searle and Esther SCN.
I have time to decide on what I want to do about this. Agree this is an unacceptable way to behave, and personal attacks are wrong. Acknowledge lack of NHS Fife policy, but consultant team are behind me on this.
28/12/23
Supposed to be in with Niamh as a buddy system. Niamh's train cancelled. Enter changing room. Sarah reg and Zoe nurse there somebody in the loo, inevitably it's Sandie. Zoe leaving. Sarah steps into bathroom so I having just taken off my shoes, pick up all my stuff and leave immediately. In just my socks take refuge in the plaster room. I'm sure she noticed, but I'm not giving her the chance to try anything. Got changed in

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:01

CE - difficulty with screenshots 1659-60 - in box 20 cause the dificulty. Told trib you can't fathom explanation. Do you accept one is that they could be manipulated
PD - can't say it's impossible, it's possible
CE - no further qu

Boom.

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2025 11:01

If Upton is involved in involved in writing the report (conflict of interest much) and thinks he's good at computer stuff, there's an email chain with him in that shouldnt exist and then Kate Searle's has an out burst of "you can't prove it" we might be forgiven for going wtf.

Rightsraptor · 25/07/2025 11:01

NotAtMyAge · 25/07/2025 10:57

I've just read in my current book of a baby girl in Scotland who was named after both her late father and the war cemetery in which he was buried - Vermelles Hughina Munro.

It was a common practice during and immediately after WW1 to name a baby after where a relative had been killed. I had a great aunt whose middle name was Verdun. She was the youngest by a long way and her brother had been killed there. I only discovered this about ten years ago when on a history website.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/07/2025 11:02

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 11:00

CE - next best, remote access to DU files
PD - ?
CE - would have been 4th option
PD - i believe DU
CE - but an option
PD - yes CE next option, record teams call
PD - yes
CE - didn't happen
PD - no
CE - you went for the 6th best option
PD - my assistence asked for just to get note

6th best option - ouch!

I hope she asks him if he would use this level of integrity of investigation in a criminal case.

ickky · 25/07/2025 11:02

So DU's phone data cannot be relied upon. This makes DU's statements also unreliable.

nauticant · 25/07/2025 11:02

Poor PD. Possibly strong-armed into appearing to save spending money on a proper expert and made to look like he'd done shoddy work, when most likely he was doing what he'd been instructed to do.

OP posts:
myplace · 25/07/2025 11:02

CapeGooseberry · 25/07/2025 11:01

I step away for a few hours to find a new thread has come and almost gone…

Story of my life, this case.

BezMills · 25/07/2025 11:03

From TT

CE - difficulty with screenshots 1659-60 - in box 20 cause the dificulty. Told trib you can't fathom explanation. Do you accept one is that they could be manipulated
PD - can't say it's impossible, it's possible

Fifer : did onybidy ask the FORENSIC BACKGROOND if editin a fuckin picture file was possible? Nut. Ah hink we've aw heard of this revofuckinlutionary technology. Sake min. Sorry mlaird. Ah think ma tech lobe has got a we bit overheated, ah need a wee lie doon.

CE - no further qu

P -
PD couple qu, you were asked re: dismiss
P - being missing, why would it be there?
PD - it's at the bottom of each window, didn't believe it was relevant
P - it's like clicking the x to close?
PD - yes
P - asked if you produced doc, could you tell us more detail, inc when and how
PD - couple days before got a cal

Jitrenka · 25/07/2025 11:04

nauticant · 25/07/2025 11:02

Poor PD. Possibly strong-armed into appearing to save spending money on a proper expert and made to look like he'd done shoddy work, when most likely he was doing what he'd been instructed to do.

Yeah he can only do what he is tasked to do and they probably didnt know what to ask him for so he sounds incompetent..

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 11:04

For clarity, this witness was not approached to give Fife an opinion on the process. He isn't an expert in the area but was asked as a fellow employyee to meet with Dr Upton on Teams to provide assistance to Dr Upton in downloading the screenshots.

The process was rubbish but it doesn't look as if the witness was ever tasked with deciding the process or ensuring quality of process. His own witness statement was potentially tampered with in that Fife added Upton's report as if it were provided by Donaldson.

The only time he has looked uncomfortable (and rightly so) is when having to confirm that one explanation for Mr Bortwick's (upcoming) testimony is that Dr Upton may have tampered with the report data himself. At that pont he looked away and around the room as he said yes that was a possibility.

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