NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

From TT

AG - no, shifts didn't align prior to me being told of ix. Info from ED was given to me from info hadn't really been a start to ix, so carried on
J - 1501 - message 1st sept from ED to MSF and you saying risk assessment to AG, response to request for doc. MSF replies muddle of check list with risk assessment. She asked for it - any reply to that?
AG -don't know

J - didyou follow up on RA??
AG - no not invovled in susx
J - didn't ask?
AG - just got a folder with the same info in
J - when folder from ED?
AG - GM left in office and got between 4 - 24 march '24
J - urgency in april, an issue with illness of MSF, any thought for another HR
AG - MSF off for a long time Anne was to help me but reverted to MSF when I got back from hols,
J - off again?
AG - yes after summer
J - when Sept to jan
J - who stepped in?
AG - Ann
JR - can look at spreadsheet 664 of MSF absences.
AG - AH ID'd to help me mid Oct when we knew MSF would be off but she was on hols when I started writing report. First meeting with AH start of Nov.
J - 3 iterations of report, what led to changes?
AG - 28th oct started writing, meant to be completed in 3 weeks, I'd done it

Should be exercised. Exorcism is about casting out demons.

Judge seems to be highlighting delays.
'Justice delayed...'etc.?

I wonder if JR remembered that NHSF had potentially libelled [correct term?] NC by suggesting she wasn't professionally neutral because of being chair of Sex Matters, and thought it best to wind her neck in..

AG - MSF off for a long time Anne was to help me but reverted to MSF when I got back from hols,
J - off again? Going anywhere nice?
I made that bit up, but all this talk of holidays reminded me of the hairdressers.

JR re examining

Exactly.

Which is precisely why I mentioned the 'Patrotism is the last refuge of the scroundel' parallel to make the point of where we are and what this is about.

It is NOT about proceedure in this case.

It IS about the desparation of JR and perhaps not liking how things are going and what the witnesses are saying.

Its about trying to regain control of a lost narrative.

Shades of the Garden Court case. Everyone is on sick leave/holiday/work hours don’t coincide. And Christmas, of course.

However the lack of people reversing into bins remains disappointing.

Do we know whether NDAs are applied disproportionately to women?

From TT

AG - AH ID'd to help me mid Oct when we knew MSF would be off but she was on hols when I started writing report. First meeting with AH start of Nov.
J - 3 iterations of report, what led to changes?
AG - 28th oct started writing, meant to be completed in 3 weeks, I'd done it

AG - it was a first draft, not final, shared with AH, discussed it, went back looked again as I would for any. Read it again, to make sure it's right. About reviewing and correct
J - apart from AH anyone else involved?
AG - no nobody saw till 13th
J - AH any input?
AG - no. DIscussed tweaking names to initials etc, didn't know we had to do that. that kind of thing
NC - think AG made a mistake, the attachments
JR - no she said statements
J - 2 statemetns, 4 outlook files, asked what
NC - file ends in png, auto junk not docs

J - so nothing else attached 2 statements, checklist etc came in folder?
AG - yes came in folder
JR - email at 807, 12:16 send time refers to an email, 829 - 4 staff in email. MSF email 16th refers to another email at 11:17 refs names - which email did she mean?
NC - leading

Fifer : this is makin me thirsty likes. Dry as the Back Burn in August.

I suppose the flames rising out of the bins made them easier to avoid..

Distracted by the heresy argument?

NC - 1237 - 2nd jan GM email to a group, not you attaching datix, 1236 see GM forwards to Norma Beverage NB
AG - director of nursing,
NC - you knew that role?
AG yes NC quite important role AG - yes
NC - email says thanks for info this is urgent needs HR advice and potential reputational damage. SHows board taking seriously

AG - yes
NC - NB thinks could be significant rep damage. She was right?

Norma B retired in July 25. I have a hunch that there is probably an awful lot more documents at a senior level that should have been disclosed if the Board were likely to have been made aware in early January. Wouldn't one of them be querying what the hold ups were if they weren't deliberate?

Everyone loves a good bincident from a witness.

P1 seems to be going after the missing risk assessment - I can't remember but has anyone admitted to doing it? even seeing it?

ooooh NC accused JR of asking a leading q
NC - implies it's one of those two
and judge agrees
J - it does rather

I understand that Dr. Upton etc all find being referred at as male as distressing but there is an objective truth here also needs acknowledging.

From the perspective of a fly in the wall observer, Dr. Upton is male. There was nothing physically, objectively female about him (at this point). He is identical to Pete the Plumber.

At first I didn't agree with NC choice of male pronouns but now I do.

Unclear language is obfuscating. You get a mental image of Dr. Upton which is not what Sandie saw. This whole tribunal is Sandie's.

Not arsey at all.

As you've signposted to Faye Russell-Caldicott's ongoing case I shall go and plant some carrots over there as a thanks for your ongoing dedication to the cause.

If Upton weren't a man, nobody would care about the pronouns. They'd accept that the witness accidentally misspoke and leave it there. It's only because he is a man and those are the correct pronouns that it's getting so much drama. If someone had accidentally called Isla Bumba "he", nobody would care...in fact Bumba herself claims not to be sure if that's wrong.

Does anyone know where the phrase " justice delayed is justice denied " I just can't remember

Witness finished

Back in 5 mins

Even the clock in the courtroom has given up.

From TT

NC - implies it's one of those two
J - it does rather
JR - can you assist with which email it meant
AG - 807 meetings on 25th email, saying hour in with witnesses.
JR - gone as far as we can, 484 please. Taken to this IV wth RA, RA remembers conv happened, she was present But had no recollection of what was said. Put to you a flat contradiction. Your thoughts
AG - don't believe its a contradiction, no
JR - before lunch asked about generally accepted beliefs 1121, do you know what it is? EHRC stat code of practice, says
JR - should treat transsexual people as G they present.
AG - yes
JR - had info from IB last week, about NHS policies from elsewhere which all say similar. Able to comment?
AG - all ive read says TG people should use facilities they've assigned themselves to. Not seen anything else

Fifer : runnie goalie and ony man's save, nice if ye kin git it ken.

JR - lastly use of pronouns, said NCs use of pronouns confusing. said asked to use, any other reason.
AG - DU is a TW and it's not for me to say or quesiton.
JR - asked about man in CR, right to object to DU in CR?
AG - DU is a TW able to use the CR, while I understand and respect sandies beliefs, there are other ways to raise it
JR - how
AG - other ways to raise it, we have to respect others and use NHS values.
JR - who report to
AG - manager, head of nursing, other line managers, common someone to call me and say
AG can you talk this through w me

JR - nothing more
J - Concludes your evidence thanks
JR - Anne Hamilton next

J - 5 min break BREAK

I think you at least deserve a pedicure with hand massage and some lovely chocolates and flowers.

Thank you so much for all the threads, it is a lot of work.

JR mentioned convo with RA [the HCA who KS didnt want named] very briefly, didn't seem to have much to say about it, which is a shame for her as it was v damaging to her side.

AG says the general belief was that TWs were entitled to use female CR.

Also say SP should have brought her objections up differently to line manager, AG etc

end of qq
break

I understand that Dr. Upton etc all find being referred at as male as distressing but there is an objective truth here also needs acknowledging.

There is nothing inherently shameful abput being male. The objective truth is that Dr Upton is male and aways will be no matter what, if any, alterations he makes to himself cosmetically, chemically or medically.

From the perspective of a fly in the wall observer, Dr. Upton is male. There was nothing physically, objectively female about him (at this point). He is is identical to Pete the Plumber.

There never will be anything objectively female about him.

At first I didn't agree with NC choice of male pronouns but now I do.
Unclear language is obfuscating. You get a mental image of Dr. Upton which is not what Sandie saw. This whole tribunal is Sandie's.

Pronouns are Rohypnol. People are entitled to say what they see, compelled language and thought is for totalitarian regimes.