NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

I have to retire from the field. Well that had its ups and downs! I'll read back the bits I missed on the threeds (like all of it)

14.48 AG to JR Sympathy with Sandie's beliefs but "We work in the NHS and the beliefs of the NHS are above ours"

See you in six weeks.

TT's 1st part of afternoon tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1948365575987560737.html

Oh, I don't know.

(That was a JOKE.)

Pete has now been caught too many times in the women's and has been escorted off the premises.

He's still smiling though through his despair.

from herald
2:49pm
Ms Glancey is asked about the misgendering of Dr Upton.
She said that it is not for her to question Dr Upton on their pronouns and therefore would not ever use he/him pronouns in describing the medic.
Dr Upton is a transwoman who has a right to use the changing room, she said.
Ms Glancey said she "absolutely respects" Ms Peggie's gender critical beliefs, but it is absolutely not okay to question Dr Upton in the way she did.
She said Ms Peggie should have taken her concerns to a line manager.
We're now going onto a very quick break. We will then hear from Anne Hamilton, a HR advisor.
2:43pm
Ms Cunningham's cross-examination has concluded. Onto cross-examination from Ms Russell.
We heard that Rehana Ashraf recalled a conversation between Dr Upton and Ms Peggie.
Ms Ashraf said that she was present but could not recall any further details.
Ms Glancey is asked whether that "flatly contradicts" Dr Upton's account.
She does not believe that it does.

Fifer : pit them in twa columns. Guid Guy, and Wank. Standard Procedure.

I keep thinking of this line and snorting with laughter. Anyone coming in contact with me today is going to think I've lost it!

Just catching up with the discussion over witnesses/rules for ETs from previous thread.

The rules are available to read online:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1155/contents/made

https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-tribunal/employment-tribunal-scotland/

Ms Glancey said she "absolutely respects" Ms Peggie's gender critical beliefs, but it is absolutely not okay to question Dr Upton in the way she did.

'in the way she did' being 'in the way that DrU said she did'😠

And she did but no one did anything about it.

Some may see the pronouns as a derail; I think its crucial. It shows in real time the effect of compelled speech, and how it obfuscates and confuses issues.

How do you respect a woman's GC beliefs while forcing them to use the same changing room as a bloke and not being able to say anything about it?

That is the million dollar question isn't it.

If Upton weren't a man, none of this would be happening at all! SP wouldn't have asked a woman to leave the room FFS!

Reminds me of this by one of Scotland's human rights commissionners:

'Requiring women to expose their naked bodies before members of the opposite sex as a condition of accessing employment is without doubt a breach of privacy, dignity, decency and human rights
www.holyrood.com/comment/view,peggie-v-nhs-fife-more-casualties-to-come

Next witness taking the oath

For anyone who hasn't seen it and is wondering what the whole 'pronouns are rohypnol' thing is about -

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I was thinking the same, it shows how difficult it is to use wrong sex pronouns and how disruptive they are but also how petty and pathetic the people who insist on them are.

Argh I've been away at a physio appointment and I've missed about 10 pages of goodness. Catching up now

Second one with a hoarse voice this week. Is there a bug going around Fife?

Thanks, this is basically my view written very clearly so I have bookmarked.

This is the takeaway that is quite difficult to parse from TT and Herald etc but is where NC went with DU in first part of ET and is now confirmed by AG

NDAs are used disportionately in resolving disputes. These disputes inevitably are more likely to be against groups who are disadvantages and use the law to enforce their rights. By definition that means injury at work, discrimination and harassment type cases. Fairly sure that means yes, against women.

According to some estimates, NDAs are now used in over 90% of civil settlements. This isn’t accidental. It’s systemic.
Louise Haigh MP

She is one of those trying to pass the new law.

Its an abuse of power. Power that we structurally know disadvantages women.

This is an article discussing the pros and cons of banning NDAs through the lens of being a woman:

https://www.yorklawsociety.net/issue-2024/2024/1/7/ndas-are-a-symptom-of-a-culture-that-oppresses-female-victims-of-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace-why-have-current-attempts-to-correct-the-misuse-of-ndas-failed

I've pulled a few quotes out of it to illustrate the answer to your question about whether women are more affected by NDAs or not.

The reason that the misuse of NDAs has been so controversial, is that they are used to allow businesses to privately settle matters of sexual harassment and assault in the workplace. The harmful repercussions being employees not reporting the harassment or assault to the police as they are not aware of their legal ability to do so; after signing an NDA. Subsequently, the 2020 Sexual Harassment Survey found that 48% of employees who officially reported their harassment were approached with an NDA by their employer, with 29% accepting.

And

While workplace harassment is not exclusive to female victims, it was found that it is much more likely that a woman would face harassment from a senior colleague, with two-thirds of perpetrators being men. Many studies have acknowledged the extreme gender imbalance in this context, for example, a 2023 study found two-thirds of female trainee surgeons had been harassed by a senior male surgeon and one-third assaulted. Therefore, the gendered element of sexual harassment means that the misuse of NDAs unfairly discriminates against one class of people. Consequently, the context of the harassment taking place makes it imperative to examine this through the perspective of women.

And

Before victims even report the harassment to their employer, 23% decide not to out of fear of the repercussions that speaking out could have on their career.

It also talks about how they can protect women too but I'll leave that for anyone who wants to read the artice in full to look at as its a thread in its own right, despite it being worth commenting on here in context