Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

You have no care or consideration for the “inclusion” of people you don’t agree with, or women that aren’t as privileged as you, like female prisoners, women in hospital, women on locked mental health wards. You aren’t all that kind, that’s why your empathy-free scolding is meaningless to me and many of us here.

I care about women’s rights, how I perceive them. I’m not advocating for any of your rights to be taken away, am I.

Women on this board face daily attempts to manipulate and guilt trip us into allowing men to do what they want, even if it harms us. FWS, the women who have been fighting for this judgment for 8 years, have been receiving daily death threats from entitled, abusive men and their flying monkeys. We are made of sterner stuff than being manipulated by people telling us we aren’t “kind”, or “inclusive”. If you want to waste your time on it, that’s up to you. But it’s not going to fly here, on the feminist board.

Assuming you’re finished?

Not all feminists agree either. I’m assuming you’ve heard of Judith Butler.

But you’re right, this is your echo chamber and some people aren’t welcome in it.

Not allowing women to have an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours, or expecting all women to comply with your viewpoint, is fairly “masculine” behaviour.

Not allowing women to have an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours, or expecting all women to comply with your viewpoint, is fairly “masculine”

Do you understand feminism at all? Women having their own opinions is masculine behaviour!!

That’s not what I said, is it.

What I said is expecting everyone to comply with that, is masculine behaviour. I thought we didn’t like men, why would we be behaving like them 🤷🏻‍♀️

Judith Butler. Where to start 😂

Point out where anyone said you’re not “allowed” to have your opinion, then.

If this was an echo chamber, like eg Reddit is, you’d have already been banned for disagreeing with us. It is not, and you’re here freely disagreeing with the prevailing view on this women centred board, and perfectly capable of making whatever argument you imagine you have for allowing some men into women’s spaces. You’re not guaranteed agreement though, not sure why you’d expect that?

Also, I fully welcome your arguments. I’m very happy to clarify why I value female only spaces and think men using them is a violation of my rights.

Re the echo chamber, I thought the consistent trend in polling was quickly moving in favour of single sex spaces being single sex spaces. I know there is a poster on here who captures that trend analysis - is it Arabella? The lastest release is availalble on sex matters website which shows majority support for sss including toilets/changing rooms and sport etc. I seem to recall from the discussion on here that the number of 'don't knows' was falling which suggests as people have more information/awareness, freedom to speak out, win legal cases, minds are being made up...

It’s @HelleofABore- she has done some excellent work crunching the numbers to show the individual trends.

Did someone say prisons? 🙂

It is unreasonable to have male prisoners locked up in the same prisons as female prisoners. There is no situation in which this is acceptable. Transwomen go to male prisons, transmen go to female ones.

In the same vein, if I as a woman am arrested and sent to prison, I do not want to be intimately searched by men who are identifying as women. I am searched every single day when I go into work, male staff never touch me. In order to adequately search females, we need biologically female searching staff.

Thank you @Ereshkigalangcleg and to you too @HelleofABore

I won’t engage in the performative back patting, that Mumsnet is currently littered with.

What I have never understood is why as women we should believe that our rights, needs and comfort are more important than anyone else’s. That isn’t because I think men are more important, it’s because I see the comfort of trans women as being as important as anyone else’s.

I don’t believe that I am in anyway disadvantaged by being female, I don’t believe men are inherently dangerous (which is why I’m unbothered about shared spaces), and I don’t see that there’s even a fight to have. Idealistic, but we can all just get along at this point IMO.

I can see, and recognise that some do think that their right to a space is more important than how that makes the other party feel, and I know none of you like the “be kind brigade,” but seriously - why are our feelings (for example) meant to be more important. Have we not moved on.

Brilliant piece from Sonia Sodha in the Observer today:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/20/the-supreme-court-has-carefully-ringfenced-protections-for-women-thats-all-we-wanted

And finally, to the countless women who lost so much in fighting to re-establish what was supposed to be ours all along, there could be no happier way for me to round off my last regular column for the Observer than by saying: you are heroes. Pop those champagne corks. Celebrate as hard as you like. You deserve it.

What about my feelings? Why are your male friends’ feelings more important than those of women? Have you honestly never considered that angle?

If you really want to get along with me or any other gender critical woman you’ll have to recognise that on this subject we are not going to agree with you. That’s fine. I don’t hate people who don’t agree with me, I leave that to the trans activists carrying placards about how women like me should be hanged or guillotined. Just because we say no to men.

I did just say that they’re of equal importance.

Nobody ever answers that question without just turning it round.

You feel, for a variety of reasons, that you require a same sex space. Others, myself included, don’t. You “getting your own way” harms the wellbeing of others to better yours.

So again - why is it that yours are more important.

To be clear, I don’t hate anyone either.

I do however feel that a group of women have fought (and apparently won) a fight on behalf of all of us, and I neither wanted nor welcomed that fight.

As a woman, that’s not something I’m comfortable with.

Not everyone can have what they want, I’m not sure why you’re failing to see that. Female spaces are for women. Not men. My feelings are more grounded in reality and what is right for women. Our privacy, dignity and safety. If you don’t value female only spaces, you are free to campaign for mixed ones.

It was never a reasonable expectation that men would be considered women by everyone else. You’re indulging in special pleading on behalf of your friend.

Those trans-identifying men who got their dicks out and pissed on the statue of Millicent Fawcett yesterday did a great job persuading us that we should welcome them in women's spaces, didn't they?

Quite, @VickyEadieofThigh

Because if they were trivial, transwomen would just use the men's toilets which also have cubicles and sinks exactly like the women's. Schrodinger's toilets I suppose. Plus the women who cheerlead the trivial toilets argument also only use women's toilets, they don't want to piss next to strange men either. It's an exercise in gaslighting and it doesn't work.

this, many women over the years have said 3rd spaces are the way forward…I will be in whichever one has the smallest queue