Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Great thread. All the classics, but plenty of room to add your own personal WTF moments. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318700-memories-of-the-last-few-years-of-madness?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

You know full well hospital wards are not allocated on your interest or otherwise in Disney.

You know why services are structured to protect children from adults, all adults lumped together as a group, and that that applies to all adults irrespective of how nice they are, and is not a judgement that those adults are all sex offenders.

You also know why services are structured to protect women from men, all men lumped together as a group, and that that applies to all men irrespective of how nice they are, and is not a judgement that those men are all sex offenders.

The fact that you are choosing to pretend not to know this, just makes you look dishonest and /or dim.

That’s not what the thread was about. There are others for the collective applause, from what I can gather most who disagree aren’t engaging with those ones.

It is interesting that the same points being made on a loop, by a group of people against one other (not that I’m bothered about being the minority here), isn’t “banging on,” but that person responding is.

It’s all in the language isn’t it.

The thread has evolved into being about why many women need single sex spaces, and why that means no men at all, even ones you like.

Right, so it’s not about being thankful as PP suggests. And there are others for that.

I know there are, they’re all over my home page.

So what group effort are you seeing then? The one telling you are wrong?

You are. The highest court in the land thinks so too.

Men are not a minority, no matter how they dress.

Do any of you ever look and think “I reckon that person disagreeing has it covered,” or do you always pile on?

Hence, group effort 😂

But you're arguing that the law is wrong when it has reasserted women's rights.

You're hardly going to get people on the feminism board to agree with you. We've been arguing FOR the reinstatement of women's single sex spaces.

You've spent literally hours shouting into the void on this because your mate wants to use the women's when the law says he's not a woman and shouldn't be there.

I've driven a four hour round trip today and had a family lunch and you're still making the same arguments to put Men above women when it comes to women's single sex spaces.

You have every right to post all you like, I just find it quite funny that you are bemused that we all disagree with you.

If you are worried about the rights of your friend there must be better ways to expend your energy which is why I suggested lobbying your MP.

No one is piling on

posters are allowed to reply to posts, thats how forums work

We can all play that game, everyone has lives.

I’ve been up since 4, chased an autistic kid around at least 3 parks, driven round in circles for at least 150 miles and just started bathtime.

You’re all still here too 🤷🏻‍♀️

To be honest I’m not bemused, amused or anything else. I also had no intention of changing anyone’s mind on anything.

I have been pointing out that the fight you’re “winning” wasn’t universally welcomed and you don’t speak for all women, it is selfish to only consider women’s needs/wants, and unilaterally banning all biological males from your space because some of them are dangerous is IMO not necessary, or fair. It tarnishes all with the same shitty brush. A brush that some of us don’t even pick up.

You don’t have to agree, I evidently don’t agree with you, but as a woman I would have liked my opinion to count before we started making sweeping generalisations.

So why don't you think your opinion counts?

You have an opinion, you're entitled to it. No one has said you are not.

So what's bothering you? What has to happen for you to consider that your opinion counts?

Your DP was banned from women's spaces before Wednesday, were you up in arms about that injustice?

Has anyone heard the phrase "Rights are not a pie" at any time over the last few days?

Turns out they were.

@SleeplessInWhereverIt clearly deeply irritates you and niggles at you that we don’t think we’re the ones in the wrong, we’re not ashamed of putting ourselves first and we can’t be guilt tripped or effectively scolded for our wrongthink - we admit we care, so spend time arguing our case. You’ve been at pains to point out how little you are bothered. But clearly you are. This isn’t the first thread, either.

TW- I don't want to use the mens toilets because I don't feel safe around men. Mens toilets are also smelly. This is why I should use the women's- because women are safer and the toilets are cleaner.

25 year old person- I don't want to live in this tower block of flats because I don't feel safe around people of my own age. The building is also dirty..This is why I should move into the over 60's block. Because old people are safer and they have a warden that cleans the building.

What is the difference?

This is also the argument Tickle used in his arguments to use women's toilets and changing rooms. That the mens were smelly. The deluded fool thought by putting on a dress he somehow stopped smelling like a man.

No, because he’s got no desire to be in them.

As I mentioned earlier, the law may have always said that trans women weren’t allowed in women’s spaces, but they were in mine. I’ve never seen anyone in real life raise issue with that, ask them to leave, threaten to call the police. If anything it would be considered strange if they did.

The law did say something, but in practice that wasn’t happening IME.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that those people who were in those spaces will now be told to go elsewhere, questioned by those who didn’t think they should have been there all along, be threatened with the police, receive “hassle” because of their presence somewhere.

I’m not disputing that you’ve got your reasons, whether I agree with them or not, but as a biological woman who should be allowed a view on those spaces, I don’t think it was necessary. I personally would never tell someone to leave somewhere so that I felt better.

Women not having a face off with a man in an enclosed and private space out of the public view isn't necessarily because we are happy about them being there.

@SleeplessInWhereverthe best thing you can do for your trans friend is to be clear that many women don’t want males in their spaces, it’s not personal, it’s about our boundaries, not other people’s identities. If your friend continues to use women’s spaces against the wishes of women, it’s possible those women will call that behaviour out.

It bothers me that people, women, think it’s acceptable to make unilateral arguments and selfish decisions that harm others, yeah.

I think it’s a shitty way to behave.

I do care about people, of any sex, treating people like shit and with the actual intention of exclusion.

The thing I always say I didn’t care about, is the fight itself. The constant barraging on various internet platforms, the protests and marches, the placards about “adult human females,” the group round of applause now.

It’s group and pack mentality, it’s not something I would endorse or engage in, and it’s not a womanhood or femininity that I want to be part of or represented by.

I am absolutely bloody over the moon to be celebrating a grass roots win for feminists against the deeply sexist government of a country (not the government of a deeply sexist country, though, I don't think). It really gives me faith that David can still beat Goliath, once in a while.

I think it's okay to be proud of the fight, once in a while, if it's done the right way, and if fighting your corner all the way to the Supreme Court with grace and determination, isn't the right way, I don't know what is.

Oh so when you said

it is selfish to only consider women’s needs/wants, and unilaterally banning all biological males from your space because some of them are dangerous is IMO not necessary, or fair. It tarnishes all with the same shitty brush. A brush that some of us don’t even pick up.

You didnt mind your DP being tarred with that shitty brush, you only mind if men who want to be in women's spaces are?

No I definitely mind that some women, not all, think that we should avoid all men because some of them are bad. I think it’s genuinely sad that people cross the road to avoid men who are quite likely just… walking somewhere.

You can ban my DP from your space, he’s never been in it. It’s the removal of people who were using them I take issue with, because they are losing access to something. In real terms, because they were using them, before I am reminded again that it wasn’t legal to begin with.

I do care about people, of any sex, treating people like shit and with the actual intention of exclusion.

You don't, because you don't care at all about women being treat like shit and being excluded from their own spaces. Muslim women, Orthodox Jewish women, women with PTSD cannot use a space with a male in, however the male thinks about himself. You don't care about their exclusion. You only care about the one man you know who wants something that was never his to have

Fully agree 💪 🥂

Ok so if squatters move into your house, it's mean and unfair to remove them because that's taking away something they've had access to, even though they were never legally entitled to it