Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Like the vast majority of people, I'm not comfortable with transwomen in women's toilets and as women's toilets are there to suit my needs my comfort is the only concern. If your friend is not comfortable with using men's toilets that are there to suit their needs then as they are a grown adult any consequences and self-imposed restrictions are their own to deal with. The answer is never to try to steal and colonise spaces that are not for them. I imagine your friend can understand that they are not allowed in other spaces such as doors marked 'staff only' in the supermarket or afterschool clubs, this is no different.

In truth though, it's not about feeling comfortable, it's about selfishness and validation. I'm not a support animal and I have no interest in providing either.

No one is expecting you to see it as a victory. We all have the right to our own feelings, something you’re pretty cavalier in dismissing yourself. We get it. You don’t agree. It doesn’t change that I see it as a victory.

Do you not care about women in prison?

Answer my question and I’ll answer yours.

Of all the issues that are available - why prisons?

Why aren’t women in prison worthy of basic human rights? Your privilege is showing.

Women aren’t the only people with rights.

This is the sort of thing handmaidens said to the suffragettes when they were asking for the right to vote.

Why are you preferencing males, over females?

TW are completely comfortable in male toilets, many have said the worst they get is a look. It's all about VALIDATION. It was never, ever, ever about 'safety'. Just as gay men have never said they feel 'unsafe' in the males.

someone else having the right to have a wee doesn’t have to affect yours.

They have the right to pee, in the space designed for their sex. And as a rape survivor, a MALE being in that female only space where we pee, miscarry, flee males, rinse out stained underwear/mooncups, etc, having a male their traumatises women. OUR safety and comfort, in the space designed....for.....us, is more important than a male seeking to be with women for validation.

It’s a storm in a gigantic teacup, and this victory is at the sacrifice of someone else’s comfort.

Again, you are not getting it. This is a major issue for women, there has been a major feminist uprising, you just haven't bothered to notice. And pardon me if we prioritise the comfort of women, girls, rape survivors, dv survivors, other traumatised women, OVER a male.

You don’t have to care about other people, and can only care about women if you so choose, but it doesn’t make me the bad guy for recognising everyone’s wellbeing and not just yours.

Likewise, you don't have to care about women and girls, and can only care about males if you choose, but it DOES make you the bad guy if you seek to insert the fox in the hen house because you don't give a fuck about the comfort and safety of the hens, and only care about foxes.

No.

Why Prisons?

Because locking up women with male rapists is abhorrent. These are vulnerable women.

Do you think that if a woman commits a crime they lose their human rights and deserve to be raped?

Women's toilets are my 'cake' though. I'm sure you understand the concept of ownership.

Do you know what your analogy reminds me of? When your toddler wants some of your food. It can be funny when it's your own little child and you might be inclined to share but you still need to teach your child that other people's food (etc) doesn't belong to them. I don't want to have to put that effort in with random adult males. I'm not their mother who indulges and spoils them, NO is the end of it.

Why is the need of a male, with a perfectly good safe place to pee, MORE IMPORTANT than the needs of vulnerable women and girls?

It’s a cake specifically designated for women. The men already have their own cake but you’ve taken it upon yourself to pass out slices to any random passing man who you’ve decided seems nice enough. Meanwhile women are going without any cake. and no, men’s soggy leftovers don’t count.

And Transwomen rightfully share the same human rights as the rest of us. Those however do not and have never included the right to force themselves into women’s spaces. They have their own toilets aka the men’s. Though if the TRAs had put a fraction as much effort into advocating for third spaces or for men to be more accepting of men who want to wear stereotypically female clothes, as they have into forcing their way into women’s spaces and threatening and hounding women then they probably would have achieved real positive change for trans people.

You’re exactly right - “my comfort is the only concern” is selfish.

But also in truth - it’s just not that deep.

They’re just bathrooms, just spaces.

If I need a pee, I couldn’t give a single fuck who else needs one. If someone made them all shared, I’d still just go for a wee.

If I’m in hospital, I want treatment, I don’t care who else is there.

Changing rooms - put a cubicle in a shared one, and I’ll use that. Not bothered.

I genuinely don’t see the point in excluding anyone from anywhere.

I find all the fuss and kick off around it honestly somewhere between tedious and irritating.

Like I said, storm in teacup.

Indeed FlakyCritic

This really stands out:
You don’t have to care about other people, and can only care about women if you so choose, but it doesn’t make me the bad guy for recognising everyone’s wellbeing and not just yours

It's empty virtue-signalling, designed to make the other person look selfish and unkind but in reality says the opposite - it elevates the wants and greed of a small number of men above the needs and rights of all women.

They’re not the needs of all women. They’re the needs of some women.

And I don’t separate needs or wants into male and female.

I don’t think male rights are any more important than women’s, and I don’t think I have either additional rights or more important rights just by nature of being female.

Being a woman doesn’t make me always a victim.

Yes, that’s your opinion. It’s not mine. I’m not sure why you imagine it’s the morally correct thing for others not to care about women’s and girls’ rights to female only spaces. If it doesn’t matter at all, your friend will be equally at home in the gents’ no? And toilets are really quite a minor issue here. This judgment has ramifications for all female only spaces and services.

Indeed.

They are the needs of most women. Stop claiming your view is the majority one. It is not.

So I'm selfish for expecting my own facilities to be mine? But your friend isn't selfish for deciding they don't fancy using their own facilities and helping themselves to mine?

Toilets are 'deep' though aren't they? It's only when women are expressing discomfort that they're denigrated as a trivial issue. Because if they were trivial, transwomen would just use the men's toilets which also have cubicles and sinks exactly like the women's. Schrodinger's toilets I suppose. Plus the women who cheerlead the trivial toilets argument also only use women's toilets, they don't want to piss next to strange men either. It's an exercise in gaslighting and it doesn't work.

Sleepness ‘I’m morally superior because I care about everyone’s wellbeing (especially Alice’

also Sleepness ‘I’m never going to prison so I don’t think about women being incarcerated alongside men. Suck it up, Alison’

Last thing I have to say - I'm not a victim either. My rights aren't based on victimhood where I have to plead and confess awful trauma so the men in charge might kindly grant me a toilet, my right are based on my status as an equal human being.

As I’ve said, I’m not sure why Sleepless thinks anyone is particularly bothered by what she and her mates think about us.

It’s not in the echo chamber here - but out in the real world, this conversation isn’t happening.

Most I know would think someone asking a trans woman to leave the bathroom unreasonable, in real life.

Then you’re in a bubble, aren’t you? Every bit as much as you think we are. The average person does not support men being in female spaces.

Guess so. But at least my bubble is inclusive.

It isn’t though. That’s the whole point of a bubble. You think you and your friends’ needs are what matters. That’s fine, but I’m not particularly interested in the thoughts of you and your friends, because they are not relevant to me.

So you don’t care about all women, just the ones who agree with you. They’re not everyone’s rights, just the rights of women who comply. Got it!