Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

THIS right here is exactly why women are fed up beyond belief. YOU don’t want to be in the same space as male bodied people…simply because they are male bodied… but we, as women (who have all experienced sexual, emotional and psychological and institutional abuse and discrimination from male bodied people), are expect to share with you? And you don’t see the irony here?

You deserve all the human rights and respect as a person but you are a male bodied person and we fear THAT, not the clothes you wear or the make up on your face.

You would know that if you were a woman. But you haven’t had our experience because you’re not, so you don’t see things through a woman’s lens. This is just fact.

But if you stand up for reality and be logical about this, you’ll find that women will have your back and will stand up for your right to go through life unharmed, using whatever name you like and wearing whatever clothes you want - because we know what that feels like to be attacked.

And yet, the clinicians at GIDS have made statements that homophobia is indeed a significant issue amongst those seeking transition. So, again, who are we to believe?

You have made several unevidenced statements on this thread so far, could you please start linking up the evidence to support your claims?

Yes, I completely take your point on that.

My reference to her not being abused was more specifically that she hasn't been raped, hasn't known the terror of being sexually assaulted, and speaks from a position of privilege where she's unlikely to be visiting a public toilet unaccompanied in a shady area where a man entering the space could feel quite threatening, even without a personal history of trauma. I was alluding to the fact that EW grandly consents to the inclusion of TW while neither considering nor being aware of how women who have been assaulted and abused in a more tangible way might feel.

And of course, she apparently gives no shits about the rights of Muslim women either.

To be fair, I'm using EW as the poster girl for this kind of attitude but she's not the only one. She's just been particularly vocal about it.

I think that when you're different from most, especially in certain hot-topic ways, you're just going to have a tougher path than some others do so it's better to accept that as a given. However, many, many people also do share that tougher path, in various ways and for various reasons. In fact, we all probably do, to some extent at least, sooner or later.

My suggestions are first, to tell yourself that you're tough enough to handle whatever's thrown at you. Repeat that mantra until it becomes part of you. If you suffer a setback in any way, it will only be temporary because then you'll find a way out of it.

Also, shield yourself from negativity as much as possible. There will always be those who don't get it and don't want to get it. Those people shouldn't be allowed any more contact or thought than the bare minimum that's necessary to get by.

Best wishes to you. Live your best life. :)

Ok I'll bite (so to speak!)

No I don't see a massive future for trans people in fact I think the tide is turning away from where it was a few years ago with the "free love" "everybodys unique" "accept people as they are"

Realistically you will never be able to have children (or really have any need to be on a chat site like Mumsnet) so I hope your planning on at least going off hormones & freezing your sperm before permanent surgery & planning on building healthy relationships with biological women if being a "mother" is something your planning in the future

I also hope your safe. I don't support attacks on trans people but know realistically male to females are a high target group.

I think ive logged on to reddit by mistake.

I didn't give them away I was stating my personal opinion.

Thedownsideisup It's your kind of frothing at the mouth over the top overreaction to anything someone says that means we can't even have even the beginnings of a conversation about this topic. It's ridiculous, frankly.

This made me smile. No matter how many thoughtful, reasonable, sensible, sensitive posts there are in a discussion like this, somebody is bound to come on and accuse us of... let's see, what was it this time? 'frothing at the mouth','over the top' 'overreaction'.

It was your turn to do the predictable this time, I see, Thedownsideisup !

You knew what I meant but I hear you.

What will help both those things is men being less dangerous as a sex class. That men who claim to be women feel unsafe in men’s spaces is entirely a male issue.

There's never really been a time I haven't felt this way. Being a woman just feels, normal. Trying to be a boy just didn't feel like me. Didn't have anything to do with my hair or my clothes, most of the time I wear jeans, hoodies, a coat, etc.

You must, surely, acknowledge that this is ONLY POSSIBLE because you are associating something with 'being a boy' other than 'having a male body'.

I do find it interesting that you can't acknowledge this and don't seem to care to explore it.

Can you name anything - any single thing - that you think 'being a boy' entails that doesn't feel like you? Are you conflating 'masculinity' with 'being male'?

@verysmellyjelly I think she's also benefitted alot from men aswell so unless she comes out as a victim of abuse (I know she was sexually harassed by photographers in her teens which is awful unrelately) I don't think it's fair to actual victims of abuse to lump her in with them

@AYoungTransWoman
I can understand, given what is going on in the USA at the moment with new rulings around this issue, that you would be afraid of similar changes happening in the UK. But I don't think you need to worry about that, honestly, the UK is not influenced by the USA's more right wing policies, only economic policies.

The US has this huge "Bible Belt" where deeply narrow minded conservatives live and where the current administration finds the majority of their supporters. The new policies are playing to that group.

And the perverse thing about US politics, as you will see from Biden policies being overturned now, is that with each new president, it's possible to completely flip things. So this guy is only going to be here for 4 yrs and after that, there'll be someone a bit more stable and moderate (we can only hope).

I'd like to rewrite this a little.

If you are asking whether [as a man] you will be able, to dress act and present [in traditionally female-coded ways] without being hassled or discriminated against, the answer is probably yes for the most part

Yes. A man who wants to challenge traditional gendered ideas about what men and women can wear, how they think and behave by adopting female-coded norms - go for it.

If you are asking whether you will be able, to dress act and present as your idea of what a woman is without being hassled or discriminated against, the answer is probably yes for the most part

No. A man who believes (or claims to believe) that prefering female-coded norms means he is actually a woman is deeply sexist and not something that should be nodded past. I don't condone abuse or harrassment but it is not reasonable for trans women to expect the misogyny of their belief to go unchallenged. Women must be allowed to say "you are not the same as me, your ideas about who I am is wrong and I find them demeaning".

You have absolutely no way of knowing what it “feels like” to be a woman. That phrase in itself shows you have no idea, because being a woman isn’t a feeling. Just like having blue eyes or black skin or big feet. They are all physical states. Woman is a physical state of an adult human female.
Every single thing a transwoman (or transman) does to express their transness is just a parody.
Breast implants = parody
wig = parody
Make up = parody
Fake high pitched voice = parody
It’s all just fake and I for one am done with it. I would no more collude with my blonde haired blue eyed white skinned DD if she decided she was Black and had a fake tan, wore an Afro wig and changed her name than I will with someone pretending to be the opposite sex.

I responded to someone who said "I think" homophobia is a motivation behind transitioning, thus my responding to their thought by saying "I doubt it" was not going against evidence.

So have you evidence to back up your claim?

Gay men that I know are very happy living as gay men. Those who transition are clearly not.

@AYoungTransWoman I hope you have a great and happy life, and I hope that that being trans is simply not an issue in the future. Trans women are women. Wishing you a very happy and fulfilling life.

Thank you, that's a really kind message

Wasn’t it Suzy Green who famously took her 15 year old gay son to Thailand for sex “change” surgery when he turned 16 they said her husband would not accept having a gay son?

Let me get the statements from the GIDs clinicians. I also think it was said in the Bell vs Tavistock Judicial Review that this was a major concern because it was going unaddressed. Whistleblowers at the GIDS tried to raise the alarm at the time.

@LightOfTheLake Transwomen are males with penis and testicles, in what way is a male person with penis and testicles any sort of 'woman'?

Being 'trans' is not the issue, it's being a male with a male body that is the issue.

Here here well said

❤

Makes a change from ‘hysterical’. That’s usually trotted out!

The op is refusing to answer the question that has been asked many times re being what a woman feels like. Because he doesn't know.