Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

It's not "narrow-minded" to say that men can't be women. They are two mutually exclusive categories and neither can know what it's like to be the one they are not. It's like thinking it's "narrow-minded" to say a fox can't be a chicken or a Boeing 747 isn't a teapot. Facts aren't "narrow-minded", they just exist.

Of course you can use imagination to pretend that something impossible is possible, and you can modify bodies or things to be a (poor) facsimile of something else. But reality still matters. If you make a teapot shaped like a 747 it won't fly you on holiday, you're going to need a real one. As you sit on the tarmac congratulating yourself on not being narrow-minded about what constitutes a 747, you've abandoned reality and linguistic definition, the kind that actually impacts our everyday experiences.

It would be far less narrow-minded to accept that men and women don't have to adhere to limiting, often harmful gender stereotypes, and that a man who is gay, has stereotyped "feminine" interests or feels inadequate as a man, is not therefore a woman, but an unusual, less stereotype-bound kind of man who should be celebrated for that and not forced into some other "gender" stereotype box. And almost always, there are reasons people hate their bodies (sexual abuse, homophobia are two major ones) that can be resolved instead of just affirming them to go through highly experimental, high-complication-rate surgery that is literally incapable of changing your sex. And this is exactly why detransition rates are high and rising – because people have gone down that route without the checks and careful assessment that used to happen, and have been deeply misled about what it entails.

Your responses make it crystal clear that you have no interest in what actual women think, unless they are saying what you want to hear. Why is that?

Is this message more 'kind' than all the other good wishes you've received from other posters? Is this because it is from a pro-trans perspective, whereas the most of us on here - surprise, surprise, it's Mumsnet - have written many, kind, supportive, positive messages to you, which are from the starting point that men cannot become women, but we wish you well anyway.

Not 'kind' enough for you?

Unfortunately, no I can’t do that. All I’m saying is, if men ask us for help, we shouldn’t just ignore them because they are men. I’m not saying go and help a man who is in trouble by putting yourself in danger. But we should help and support men who need it in any way we can.

I’m not a misogynist - I hate men who belittle women and general gender inequality whether it’s about pay or other rights. But we need to stop this narrative of all men are awful. It’s unhealthy for us and for future generations. There are plenty of decent men out there - they might not always understand what women go through, but that’s why we educate them. If we keep alienating these kind of men, it’s not going to help our cause at all.

Probably trans people and non-trans women have similar fears and expectations. I wouldn’t want trans people to have to use a toilet/changing room area that made them feel uncomfortable or endangered but I myself would not want to be forced into using a unisex space for the same reasons.

Probably trans people have to spend a similar amount of their lives altering how they behave and what they do in order to protect against non-trans male violence just as women do. Yet when it comes to debate and conversations around the ‘trans issue’ it usually centres around what women should accept. Non-trans male violence is the problem in our society. Maybe it would be more helpful for trans activists to focus on tackling misogyny than on vilifying women as most women are or could be important allies for the trans community so long as we don’t feel forced into dangerous situations because of our sex.

Of course.

You deserve the same amount of respect as everyone else, no more, no less.

IMO, too much of this debate centres on demanding people agree with blanket statements such as 'a trans woman is a woman' rather than securing rights that facilitate positive changes for everyone, trans people included.

I have no issue at all with sharing space with trans people. I don't want you to feel excluded or othered, BUT I expect the same.

A lot of the issues with this debate have arisen from women 'losing' rights in order to make way for trans women (ie rape crisis centres, women's sports, trans women in female prisons etc) which should be assessed on a case to case basis, rather than under blanket laws. For instance, a rapist who did not claim to be trans until they were arrested should never be considered for a female prison.

To me, a lot of this argument would be better sorted with common sense and common decency.

Women do nothing but help men. Men are literally never ignored. That is an imaginary problem.
Also "non trans male" = male. There is no such thing as "non trans"

FFS. No one is saying, or has said, ALL men are awful. Does it really have to be explained to you though why sex based spaces exist in the first place? I don’t want lovely men in certain spaces either.

If TWAW, why the major surgery?

Non trans women, really? Women will do.

I've not read the full thread, I'll go back and catch up now I've finished work...
But I want to ask, "Is there any future you would accept for people like me?"
I'm a woman, not cis, (that's insulting).
I breastfed through blood, sweat and tears for over 2 years, I am proud of this achievement - please remove the word 'chestfeeding' from our language and respect women.
I met a man dressed as a woman in the toilets when I was 5 and was sexually harrassed by him. May I have a single sex toilet, so I don't have to fear?
How can you support these attacks on women and children?
It's all a con. You will regret harming your body which is perfect as it is x.

They aren’t though. You know that, I know that. If they were, this conversation wouldn’t be happening.

I wish you all the best for the future. You should be able to wear whatever you like. Having surgery is entirely your business and risk to take.

But please don't encroach into women only spaces. The same way you don't feel comfortable going into male only spaces, we don't feel comfortable having men in our dedicated women's spaces.

I agree there needs to be more unisex spaces for transpeople but this should be in addition to, not instead of single sex spaces.

I apologise for thinking you were contributing to the discussion rather than just performing a monologue.

Why would he have any interest in hearing what women actually think?

After all, a prerequisite to his belief that he is a woman is that he believes he already knows how we think.

If he was able to perceive us as people in our own right and had the respect to listen to what we actually say not just see what he projects, he would not be able to hold this belief that he is a woman in the first place.

I have no objection to helping men
i have no objection to helping ensure transgender people are treated fairly in life

but people are transgender - they can’t change sex -it’s not trans-sex - the clue in in the word - and I don’t even believe it is really helpful to transgender people to deny their sexual reality in the long run - harmful to their physical health ,harmful to their mental health

if you are male - you don’t belong in female sports and in situations that make a women sexually uncomfortable or outright terrified

these are not everyday situations save for gyms where there are some facilities that don’t have suitable changing / showering spaces . Happy to push for greater facilities there. The solution isn’t hijacking female spaces .

OP, my hope for your future is that you dress however you want, call yourself by whatever name you want, have consensual sex with whomever you want - but accept that you are male. I hope you respect women's rights to our own spaces, and use men's spaces instead of ours, because you are male.

I also hope you encourage others in the trans community to stop calling women bigots for protecting our own hard-won rights. Apart from anything else, it's in your own best interests to do this: the societal backlash against TRAs' bullying and harassment is growing, and you will get caught up in the fallout unless the community goes into serious damage control now.

I’m not listening to other women he isn’t demonstrating very female bahviours

Some of the comments??!!!!
If a man has surgery and has hormone treatment to trans to a woman they ARE a woman.suggesting they are otherwise is disgusting and disrespectful.
Comments like these are creating a ne prejudice.
Does anyone think they should be a separate public toilet for trans men and trans women?
Sorry for typos...
How hurtful for those who need to change their sex! They are never going to be accepted into society are they.?
Transphobiac to say the least.

I think you need to start your own thread because male on male violence is a much bigger problem than toilets. Theres much to be discussed about how males are failing in the education system and how this is not good for equality and harmony in society long term. But this is a thread started by a young g trans woman so let’s stick with that here?

No.

You see what's happening here, FWR-ers: we start out being supportive and understanding and sensitive in our replies to the OP, but nothing is 'kind' enough if we don't accept TWAW, full stop.
A man cannot become a woman, Sallyssn. That's just a fact, it's not an opinion, it's not a phobia, it's fact. And that's what we thrive on here: observable, scientific fact.

I was suggesting that scared of going into, and anxious about going into are different things.

If male toilets really are the wild-west - a place to be scared of because they are scary places, then why on earth do we send male children into them? Why are there not separate children's toilets (as we do infact have in schools - to protect the children from adults)

I'd suggest that actually, it's anxiety talking - much like being scared of flying on a plane or driving on the motorway - non-specific fear not supported by statistics or experience.

If a man has surgery and has hormone treatment to trans to a woman they ARE a woman.

Don't be daft. They're a man who has had surgery and has hormone treatment.

Yes, women are just sources of validation to these men.