Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

My point is that many don’t seem to be considering a transwoman’s concerns of using a men’s bathroom.

But why do you think we should be considering their concerns? They are not considering ours. Why haven't you asked the OP to consider our concerns?

@mswales Transsexuals (crossdressers) have existed throughout history, but not transgender, which is recent. And you don't get it. The backlash is against males invading womens spaces. It's not about 'transpeople' it's about MALES. You don't get to re-brand males as trans and act like they are a vulnerable and different group. They are fully intact males. And feminists are winning this war, feminists will never, ever, ever, ever stop fighting for our rights back - and poll after poll shows the more people are exposed to trans ideology and trans overreach, the more they learn what is truly going on (males in female rape crisis centres, battered women facilities as well as toilets and changerooms) plus males taking female awards, sports scholarships, medals and places, the greater people turn against it. The truth is GC feminists are winning this war, and in 20 years time when Gender Ideology is over, Sociologists will study this era and ask how people were so brainwashed by a Mens Rights ideology that removed every single sex-based right and space women had.

YouGov ran their own survey in 2020, 2022 and 2024. The change in 4 years as the below images show is remarkable. People have understood the ask, and have said no. Feminists are winning this war.

Nope that’s not what I was proposing. I said I would be ok with it. But I proposed third unisex bathrooms so that they aren’t forced to use a men’s bathroom. If a transwoman is not ok with that solution then it’s an unsolvable problem.

From the NHS website:

Surgery for trans women
Gender surgery for trans women includes:

• removal of the testes (orchidectomy)
• removal of the penis (penectomy)
• construction of a vagina (vaginoplasty)
• construction of a vulva (vulvoplasty)
• construction of a clitoris (clitoroplasty)

OP, you are not going to get a vagina or a vulva or a clitoris. The NHS, an organisation that the people of the UK were once immensely proud of, is lying to you

You'd genuinely be ok with a fully intact male with penis and testicles in your change room? Really?

Doesn't matter if the man who wants access to the women is the loveliest, sweetest, nicest and most softly spoken man in the history of the world. Or if he's scared of using the men's spaces.

He doesn't get to use women as support humans. Using women isn't, in fact, kind. Ignoring women's wants/needs/desires isn't 'lovely'. Ignoring the fact that most women don't want men in their spaces is ... well, what do we call it when men ignore women's boundaries? Deliberately transgress them?

Men's wants/needs/desires don't over ride mine, no matter how much of a nasty, raddled, horrible old hag I might be.

Women need our stuff back.

I will still consider you the sex you were born in in my mind. Be that male or female. Surgery does not change that.

I will also be respectful of your decisions and unless directly asked I won’t give my opinion.

I will not be forced to accept your “new gender” as medical fact when it is in fact not.

Again, by the rules that you wanted in place no such thing can happen as a man that says they are a woman is a woman.

This is what you wanted, unless what you wanted is wrong?

If you don’t care about vulnerable men, then why should they care about us? That’s just alienating men who are on our side. Misogynistic, violent, evil men are the problem. Not all men.

This is confusing. Are you male?

Female people are highly likely to correctly sex a male people with interaction. Some even simply seeing that person move.

Just because you, personally, cannot tell the difference that doesn't make your experience universal. With a group of female people using a space that they expect to be single sex, it could be said that it is close to certain that one of them will correctly sex a male person there.

It isn't 'the look'. It is the sketal proportions, the movement and gait. It is the facial proportions and the voice if a voice is heard. There are many factors in correctly sexing a person.

I think it is a fallacy to make a statement that a male can 'look absolutely female'. I have not ever come across one that does, even if they have been on puberty blockers, even in media if no filters or photographic tricks are used.

There is no evidence at all that any male in the UK at whatever stage of transition is any less of a risk of committing a sex crime than any other male in the UK.

By all means, you focus your energy where you wish. I and others will focus on campaigning to change the laws to exclude all male people from female single sex provisions.

But all men are at risk of male violence. In fact, the statistics show that all men are at far higher risk of being attacked by a man in a public place than women are. You could argue that the claim that men who are pretending to be women are assaulted more often than women proves that they are in fact just men.

Men make up the majority of murder victims killed by men.

Why are the male toilets ok for some men but not others? Aren't they all at risk of experiencing male violence?

And again, the so-called inhabitants of Terf Island are vilified whilst the men who are frightened of using the correct loos etc for their sex, are welcomed into our spaces!
Good grief if 10yr old boys have to use the men’s loos, I’m sure a fully grown man identifying as a transwoman can manage it.
What about slightly built men? Effeminate men? Anxious men? All welcome too??
3rd spaces would be great- but TW don’t want this. It’s not validating is it?

We can care about vulnerable male people. However, we should be able to prioritise our focus without being shamed that we are not focusing on them.

I'd accept it being possible to change legal sex AFTER having all the hormone treatment and surgery, including full removal of all reproductive organs. No GRC for anyone who still has penis/testicles or ovaries/uterus.

And biological males would still have to be kept out of female sports, prisons, refuges and the like.

No men are vulnerable.

Doubt that is the case.

My cousin is gay and he had never thought about transitioning, and he is an effeminate male.

Have heard though that gay men who have transitioned now get a lot more attention from men as transwomen.

Good lord. Of course not all transwomen are good. I could say the same about women. I’m just giving one example of the situation. At the end of the day, you just can’t tell and hence my suggestion for a third unisex bathroom.

Hi OP, not sure if you’re still reading. What I want is full acknowledgement of the difference between sex (immutable, cannot be changed) and gender (behaviours, societally determined and stereotyped). I personally am much more “relaxed” than the classic viewpoint on FWR regarding a lot of sex and gender related topics, even though I’m well aware of the arguments in every direction, but I cannot and will not accept the obfuscation around biological sex. I think this is a huge misstep by trans people and their allies. The coopting of DSDs under the misnomer of “intersex” to try and twist the meaning of sex into a more convenient channel and distort its actual implications is just so malicious in terms of what that has meant and looked like over time for the genuinely vulnerable. (To be clear, I don’t mean you here, I’m talking about activists, who are not necessarily even trans.)

For me, a complete and clear separation of sex and gender, and total stepping back from trying to interfere with paediatric medical care, are the lines in the sand. I have zero wish to legislate how adults conduct their own lives or what they call themselves.

Look into their souls like Layla Moran does!

(From a 2018 Parliament debate: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-11-21/debates/BE06C5D4-E549-4F94-87B1-9B77F32EA155/Self-IdentificationOfGender )

OP-- I have not read the thread just your OP so do not know where the conversation has gone but I would just like to advise you to think long and hard about the surgery. My brother had it and I won't go into detail but would not wish that on anyone. Please present as you wish but treasure the healthy body you have.

I genuinely don't understand how a man can claim 'being a woman just feels normal'

You're not a woman, you never have been and never will be. Regardless of your clothing, hairstyle, make up, plastic surgery etc, you're a man and you weren't trying to be a boy, you were/are one.

I also don't understand why a male transperson would post on MN feminist board to seek validation. It just seems 'contrived'.

It wouldnt surprise me if the average goth in the 1980s was more in danger in the male toilets than any tim is today.

Would you accept Sarah Jane Baker, who castrated himself in prison (attempted murder, kidnap, torture) as a 'legal' woman?

Mind you, if he is to stay out of all women's spaces, shortlists, etc, then I don't suppose it matters.

So long as women's rights are protected, men can have all the 'gender certificates' they wish. Have several! Have a pink one, with glitter!

But a hysterectomy isn't a sex change. A woman who has had a hysterectomy is just a woman who has had a hysterectomy.