Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

I rather suspect 'female and non-binary groups' are aimed at being all female sex, but to include females (who look female) but who identify as non-binary. I don't get the impression these groups really want non-binary males turning up.

This person would look at first glance look like a male, and they have deliberately paid the heavy price of having an endochrine imbalance and early menopause to look male, so obviously being perceived as male is very important to them. Its a bit piss taking to now get upset because people are not reading her as female.

And I suspect this is what this is about. After transitioning, this person has probably found that they don't really fit anywhere. I doubt they are able to form friendships with men as a man. because men can tell she is not really a man. Even if she physically passed better than she does, they would still be able to tell she was 'different' even if they couldn't quite articulate how. She probably craves female friendship and companionship but now finds herself unable to enter these social spaces as a woman to be able to form these friendships.

She's probably found herself in a hinterland where she is, within society, not fitting in as either a man or a woman, (actually, I can now see why that has led her to conclude she is non-binary, within her conceptual framework). And instead of realising its the choices she has made which has led her to this hinterland, she is blaming others for not being inclusive enough.

I feel quite sorry for her. She's been sold a lie about the 'authentic self' = true happiness', and now is finding its made her life harder.

Well if transmen are women, I’m sure no women in that group will have an issue with a transman being there.
Regardless of how manly that transman looks right?

EDIT:
Im assuming that will be the same for toilets and changing rooms, women only swimming etc etc….

Yes, it is a real question. But then I don't understand why so many women seem to have ridiculous histrionics about spiders, or about going somewhere on their own, so perhaps I'm just generally unsympathetic.

I am totally in favour of women-only spaces, am sympathetic to any woman who has been assaulted, and do not believe that TWAW or any of the other TRA bollocks. If a man burst into a public toilet stall I was using I would be frightened, yes. But bumping into him by the basins, as happens in some restaurants where washing facilities are unisex? No, that would not faze me and I think women can argue this point effectively without us having to present ourselves as delicate flowers who can't cope with normal social interaction.

“Trans men are women”.
Precisely.
So why the hell call yourself a man when you still want to access all things women?
Attention seeking bollocks.

Transwomen are men. Transmen are women. If we could get that straight in people's minds we might get somewhere.

Everyone who Frankie asked said "You are welcome in this group!" No one said they were unwelcome or shouldn't join in the walk.

One of the recommended videos which came up was by the same person and titled "What it's like in my auDHD head." As a fellow autistic and ADHD person, I strongly recognised the story of going to the meeting point for the walk and standing near a group of people, but not introducing yourself to them. I think it highly possible that being a bit nervous, Frankie's body language was actually conveying "keep away" signals, even though Frankie wanted to make friends. Just because the people didn't immediately reach out does not mean they disliked, or wanted to exclude, Frankie.
The thing about people not taking photos of Frankie is just politeness on their part - to not take a random stranger's picture without permission - certainly not something to complain about!

It is a shame the experience didn't go well for Frankie but it really doesn't sound as though it was anything personal, or as though masculine non-binary (female) people aren't welcome in the group, and certainly shouldn't be seen as a "kick in the teeth" as in the video description.

Just finished watching the whole video, and yep, she joined to make friends and for 'safety'. She wants to be friends with women. Because she is a woman. She seems to be very lonely and feeling very battered

I've seen another video from a TIF on this, crying about how lonely she now was and how she misses female friendships.

Its really sad.

Ironically, probably one of the most welcoming places these TIF could go would be a GC feminist group - because we would accept them as female and embrace that side of them. It's certainly seeming that their own 'queer' circles are not accommodating them. I guess the new recruits are more exciting than those who have actually transitioned and are done.

I think it must be harder for TIF than TIM. TIMs rarely pass and so its easier to 'place' them and to know how to interact with them. TIFs often do pass physically but can never really pass as males socially, as they aren't males.

If you make yourself look like you don’t fit in with the group you can’t complain when the group doesn’t realise you are there to fit in with them.

it’s like a silent goth turning up to a townie event on the basis that they used to be a townie before they died their hair black and started wearing all the make up.

If you say something they might invite you to join them (especially if someone there remembers you from before) but if you stay at the edge looking moody they definitely won’t.

@niadainud I understand it can be difficult to put yourself in someone else’s shoes especially if you haven’t had to deal with the things that they have. I am not a delicate flower, I am well able to stand up to men in “normal social interactions”. Finding a man in a women only toilet is not a normal place for men to be, the absolute shock of walking out of a cubicle to confront one can take you back to a place of great danger and real trauma. I was sexually assaulted as an 11 year old girl in a unisex swimming changing room I would be terrified to be confronted in this way and I shouldn’t have to. Whether I have experienced that or not, whether I am a DV survivor, a rape survivor, any of the myriad of abuses suffered by women from men survivor I shouldn’t ever be in a position in MY space with a male who has no right to be there. (TM are women and have every right to be in that space).

Might be time for you to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker. Feeling frightened in situations where you might be vulnerable is a useful trait to have, not a foolish one.

I suspect a lot of Frankie's discomfort and inability to go up and start chatting to people when she joined the group, comes from the fact that she knows she does not really belong at this group.. She's gone through huge health sacrifices to #become a man', realised other men don't want to be her friends and is now trying to get back into women's groups to make female friends.

Being a TW or TM is actually buying into a binary.

She is now trying to reject that to fit in with women's groups again. By trying to join she's quite publicly admitting she has made a mistake that she regrets in becoming a transman, even if she can't quite articulate that yet.

Yeah, it's absolutely a deliberate attempt to stir up trouble for social media.

"Those mean nasty TERFs say trans women are men and trans men are women but they won't let me join their women's group."

(Even though they probably would have done if you'd introduced yourself and said, "Hi, I'm a trans man, hope you don't mind me joining.")

Maybe she's coming to an age when she starts realising the importance of female friendships. How it's different from having male friends.

I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you.

Whether I have experienced that or not, whether I am a DV survivor, a rape survivor, any of the myriad of abuses suffered by women from men survivor I shouldn’t ever be in a position in MY space with a male who has no right to be there. (TM are women and have every right to be in that space).

I completely agree with this.

Ironically, I went into the wrong toilets a few months ago because I was following someone who was clearly male down the stairs in a restaurant. When he turned to go into one set of toilets I automatically went in the other door without checking - then realised what had happened. It was obviously intentional on his part as he didn't immediately turn round and come out of the ladies'.

@niadainud

Urgh what happened? Did you wait for him to come out?

Surely you can't be non-binary if you are a trans-person.
Pick a fucking lane.

Yes this.

One of the factors of the trans movement is that there seems to be an assumption that everyone is automatically mates, taking all the effort out of it.

I think this happens a lot.

There seems to be a bit of proliferation of these threads. Regardless of whether she has a beard she is female so should be in the female category. It's almost like the trans movement is trying to threaten don't argue transwomen shouldn't be included or you'll have to have transmen using the facilities.

Essentially someone who is genetically female but prefers to present as androgynous and/or uses they/them pronouns.

so someone who might presents as masc* but by being in female non binary space is letting other women know it is still a safe space and they have the same under carriage

Most feminists would prefer a world where gay and / or autistic women didn't feel the need to risk their physical and mental health to approximate the appearance of men.

Sadly we live in a world where gender stereotypes rule. This is precisely the opposite of what feminists have been fighting for so I'm not sure feminists need scolding for the awkward situations that arise when transmen need the protection of female spaces but have chosen to look male.

The wonderful Keira Bell has spoken about how she still sometimes uses male facilities as she's aware her appearance can cause concern. It does take a degree of self awareness to work out if you genuinely pass or not. (Obviously this is only relevant for transmen and Keira is accepting a risk rather than upsetting women. If a transwoman believes they pass it's irrelevant. By using the opposite sex facilities they're forcing women to accept the risk, not themselves.).

I think it's more complicated than that. The group I've been to that had the most TIFs was a group of care-leaving girls. Huge number of hyper-sexualised-dressed and a huge number of TIF/NB. For broadly the same reason, I assume; trauma. Identifying out of trauma because of how your female body has been treated is common. And therefore that feeling that everyone else should know and accommodate you. It is 'narcissistic' in a trauma-impacted way.

Sounds like Frankie is also ND, which means the mind-reading of the group would have been challenging, and the going up and asking would have been too.

Girls have been badly served by this idea that you can identify out of femalehood. You can't, and it removes your tribe. It's very isolating.

So exactly as binary as the rest of us but wanting to be a bit pretendy.

Looking as though you want to be the centre of attention is not the best way to make friends with a new group.

I'd welcome the female 'transman' into a women's space and I don't see why male 'Transwomen' aren't welcome in male spaces, given they are biological males. Toxic masculinity I'd imagine is responsible for much of these problems for both sexes.

And yes, of course a transman, being a woman, should be welcome in any women-only group. Or in a non-binary (ie mixed sex) group.

But claiming a group can be single sex and mixed sex at the same time is idiotic.