Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

This is a fantastic point.

Trans ideology really fails young people by suggesting that normal human interaction (finding it a bit awkward joining a new group is normal and if you want to join you have to adult up and introduce yourself) is exclusion / transphobia / hate. It also suggests that having main character syndrome is reasonable when it's not. It's encouraging mental unhealthiness but at the same time other people have clocked on to the fact that acting normally can have you branded a bigot / get you sacked by pronoun people and you can't ever win with their demands* so it's not unreasonable to want to avoid that.

I wouldn't want someone who took to tiktok and complained and threw around accusations and insults of 'exclusion' etc because they didn't have the guts to introduce themselves as part of any group I'd want to stay in honestly. I haven't got time for walking on eggshells around a stranger.

• E.g. in the Sandie Peggie case where both looking at Upton AND avoiding looking at him were both apparently bigoted. Can't win / walking on eggshells / coercive control.

Sounds like Frankie is also ND, which means the mind-reading of the group would have been challenging, and the going up and asking would have been too

Yes, Frankie may have assumed everyone knew why she was there, and that she was non-binary, AFAB. Because she herself knew that, so they must know it too.

Well this is exactly what I mean. I may have not worded it in a clear way.

This person is a woman but they didn't like that so now present as male.

But being 'male', then crying over exclusion at a female group not welcoming them? Which is it? The whole argument that is all over the internet now is 'Transwomen are women!' (Which I do not agree with by the way)but by that theory, (which this person totally perpetuates online!)a transman, is a man.

And should not be turning up to female only spaces.

As a PP has also said, it's even worse than that, he'd noticed that there 'wasn't' anyone who looked like me' in that group, yet still turned up to it. And then didn't say anything? And is now upset at being exluded. If you're 'a man' go and join a male walking group?

My experience is that the ' Female and non-binary' groups do want to be single sex. They add non-binary so as not to exclude females who say they are non-binary. They don't really want non-binary males to attend.

'Women's' groups that are happy for males to attend will advertise as ' open to anyone who identifies as a woman' (which would obvs exclude Frankie).

I see this person as a victim.

Its pretty clear from the data that this movement is hoovering up young people with quite serious mental health issues and selling them a snake-oil solution of transitioning.

Frankie is ND and has likely spent her whole life feeling ' different' and not belonging. The trans movement will have told her what the reason and solution to that is, and showered her with acceptance during her journey.

Now she has done it, it has not solved her problems but has only increased her social isolation and difference from other people.

I feel really sorry for her. She was sold a lie. And her life will forever be harder for it physically and socially. I'm angry with the health professionals who failed to protect her, not with her.

Great post, spot on. But the blame needs to stop being placed on people behaving entirely normally such as this walking group to those who have promoted such an unhealthy world view to vulnerable children / young adults.

And young people need to stop whining about normal human interactions and claiming bigotry as soon as anything less than red carpet treatment happens. It's not good for people to be so lacking in even the tiniest bit of resilience and will not lead to healthy relationships. No one is owed friendship and friendship needs to be reciprocal not one way only.

'Non binary' cannot be applied to sex, which is binary in mammals.

So it must be a reference to 'gender', which is a belief system that endorses sex-role stereotypes, not a thing, so it is wrong to use it to categorise an event or activity that might be attended by gender atheists who find the whole concept deeply, very, extremely, outrageously offensive.

Some gender atheists would not want to socialise with people committed to upholding the stereotypes inherent in gender belief.

It sounds like its a well established group, going and standing near them and expecting someone to know that you are there for this group and single you out for special attention and try and befriend you is so self-centred.

I could see the argument if this person introduced themselves and was ignored or told they didn't belong but it sounds like they didn't. Like the easiest thing would have been to say to someone "this is the women and non-binary hiking group, right? Its my first time here, I'm Frankie".

Its again expecting every woman to be your Mother and take care of you and tell you how special you are. Just because someone has a special gender identity doesn't mean that people will want to get to know you.

Yes, but Frankie cannot do this. Frankie is not in a place of realising why her life is like this. It would take a lot for NT person in her situation to really realise how GI had lied to them and fucked them over, and face up to the rather horrifying situation they are now in. But Frankie is ND, which means they may have rigid and inflexible thinking. Which would make it even harder for them to come to this realisation.

I have had a LTR with an autistic person and they way they had of thinking and understanding was very different (and often not rooted in the reality of what was happening).

As PP said Frankie was likely, due to her ND, unable to understand that the other people did not know what she did, and did not understand how to behave appropriately to get them to understand who she was and why she was there.

As a PP has also said, it's even worse than that, he'd noticed that there 'wasn't' anyone who looked like me' in that group, yet still turned up to it. And then didn't say anything? And is now upset at being exluded. If you're 'a man' go and join a male walking group?

She knows many men would give her short shrift, it's much easier to put upon women for your needs, they are the support humans after all.

Men who knowingly enter women only spaces are boundary violators it makes sense to be wary of them.

Ok but it's not anyone in any social group's responsibility to do this for her.

Given the reaction / damnation of people she's not even talked to or given a chance on social media, staying well away would be the sane and healthy response.

Other people have their own shit to deal with.

there's nothing unusual in being shy with new people, awkward in unfamiliar social situations, unsure of what to do in a new group. We all had to learn, starting on the day we turned up in pre-school. You gradually learn by trial and error, and the first day anxiety never quite goes away, but adults learn to cope.

Or maybe because she is a woman she craves female friendship? She is unlikely to form a friendship with a man, as she is not a man and doesn't know how to socialise with them as a man. Yet she can't be their friend as a woman as she does not look like a woman. She's living in a social no-mans land (if you forgive the phrase).

She's lonely. Gender ideology has taken someone who already would have had barriers to social relationships and made that worse by making her look like something she never can be.

Seems to me that this individual is upset that everyone wasn't instantly fawning over them. As for feeling hurt at not being included in a photo of people you'd made a point of not being with, seriously, grow the fuck up.

Exactly, and blaming others for that anxiety and nervousness isn't going to make people like you.

I find the mentality so bizarre. A social group isn't a publicly funded support group. You can't force people to like you particularly if your behaviour (the tiktok video) is is unpleasant.

Nah. Pick a team.

Other people do have their own shit to deal with, but as someone with autism she may have very limited capacity to understand this.

Frankie would have been better served if there were high quality autism services which could help her understand her autism and help her with social relations, rather than an NHS (presuming she got her 'treatment' from the NHS) 'transitioning' her instead.

The Autism Society and services should have been all over the transitioning of people with autism as a safeguarding concern, but they have failed.

I do agree with that too, for her and all the other people whom this has affected.

I don't blame this group of women or its organisers however.

Young is a bit of a stretch-yes, Frankie may be young, but I think the dangers start with children really. Frankie transitioned in late twenties/thirties going by tiktok. And has ASD as others have pointed out.

I am genuinely sorry for her on one level. I've lived with someone autistic, I know they find it hard. I'm also angry with the people who encouraged her into the gendershit mindset. But ultimately, being an adult is hard, and that isn't something you can blame anyone else for, any more than you can ask them to do the growing up for you.

I must admit the expression cake and eat it comes to mind. If you want to be accepted by men, dressing as a man, taking hormones to gain facial hair and more generally demanding to be treated like a man you shouldn't then access female spaces because you prefer them.

I would much prefer if humans could simply be accepted as human, dress how they feel appropriate to them but no hormones basically non binary and use where available unisex facilities. This whole "I'm the opposite sex" thing is so confusing, can't we just be people, I really don't care if men where dresses and women wear suits!

What a good post - amidst so many wise posts. Ironically the toxic males who dominate this movement have very successfully turned these young women away from the women who can support, empathise and love them through their unhappiness. Telling them that their mothers, sisters, aunts and women who failed to obey the demands of predatory men are bigots and right wing fascists has left them isolated without the extended family and community support that helps young people manage the transition from girlhood to woman hood

Shamefully, care leavers as a specific group were directly targeted by transactivists with the "you've been born in the wrong body" nonsense at the very outset. Imagine how appealing children alone and isolated from their families would find the idea that a sex change would fix their profound difficulties.

It's been an avoidable tragedy

Well think about that.

This is someone who does not have the capacity to understand that you need to go up to people to tell them who you are and why you are at a group, and to start a conversation.. (She has autism in case you have not followed the thread).

Yet she was deemed suitable to have the capacity to decide she was a man, and to be medically transitioned to look like a man.

That sounds like a massive system fail to me.

I doubt anyone bothered to explain to this young woman that she was highly unlikely to be able to make friends with any men, as a 'man'. And yet because she looks like a man she was also likely excluding herself from friendships with women as a woman. And without anyone explaining this to her, she sure as hell did not have the capacity to work that out for herself before injecting testosterone into herself.

This is fascinating really. As well as obviously a horrible thing.

She is married to a man from what I've deduced from comments on posts not that that really makes a difference if trying to make new friends.

I saw a post by (or maybe about) her (sorry, I forget where) some time ago-people were getting annoyed as she was telling them to take down any Harry Potter memes on social media, and some other thing-saying they could post what they wanted. I assume now having seen this that it is because of JK Rowling's stance with trans movements.