Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

It's an odd one. If I had have been in that group of walkers and a transman had joined, while I wouldn't necessarily be afraid or annoyed as I would've had an ACTUAL man joined us, I'd have felt a bit odd about it. I can't really explain why! I'd assume, unfortunately as others have said, that they'd be quite hard work?

More perhaps needs to be talked about and promoted, about this. As I've said there are youtubers talking about some issues around detransitioning.

But I can predict how the trans movement would take that, if we spoke more about the social issues surrounding trans people.

"Can you imagine reading a thread from a TQ+ community worrying to each other about whether they had been sufficiently welcoming, nurturing and dutiful to a woman who wandered in their midst with no clear agenda? What is this one way only expectation and why would it be ok?"

We mere women are simply not special enough, are we, @TheOtherRaven. Even those larping as women don't extend the pretence to becoming as concerned for everyone else as most actual women are.

Quite.

It's so much the case that anyone experiencing difficulty in distinguishing sex on things like chromosomes could always work out which of two binary sexes a person belongs to by whether or not they are expected to nicely and submissively take the shit being handed to them.

Oh I absolutely agree, some people just can't be reasoned with and it's not anyone else's responsibility to deal with mental illness and the challenges it presents.

I just don't like the idea that trans-identified females should be automatically unwelcome in female spaces. I think generally we should welcome them back because so many get caught up in the cult, often at very young ages. They end up isolated except for other trans-identified people. I think it must be very hard to walk back from that but I know many trans-identified women deeply miss the connection they used to have with other women.

All round it is just very sad, but some of them are certainly too difficult and obstinate to ever get on nicely with others in a women's group.

Ironically, the trans movement is the worst enemy of so many trans-identified people. I know a young woman who transitioned to a transman at a very young age. She developed dysphoria in early childhood after being sexually abused. She is unable/unwilling to see the connection between those events and I doubt she will ever detransition but was left deeply isolated as she is in disagreement with most trans politics and doesn't feel safe or welcome in that 'community'.

She mentioned how much she missed the connection she used to have with other women and how it had been difficult to adjust to how women treated her with apprehension now. I managed to put her in touch with a women's group that accepted trans-identified females including transmen like her. I do believe there are likely to be more like her out there, who may never actually detransition, but still benefit from coming to terms with their actual sex and having a space where that can be recognised without the difficulties and stereotypes that they have been taught to associate with womanhood.

Of course it is not any specific person's job to provide that and the individual has to be willing to meet people halfway. From the posts here it seems that isn't the case with Frankie. I don't think that is always the case though, and with the number of young girls becoming trans-identified I think it will become more and more likely that trans-identified females will be encountered in women's groups. When the lie they have been sold falls apart, it will be women/feminists left to pick up the pieces as usual.

It may be rather like the willingness to change in mixed sex spaces conversations.

There are some women who are very happy to do this, and that is fine.

There are some women who are absolutely not happy, willing or able to do this, and that is also fine.

It's when there becomes social pressure or a feeling of responsibility that is used to prevent and stifle women's 'no' and own independent thoughts, feelings, needs and responses it starts to get difficult. There needs to be space for both views, and for it to be as accepted for women to say no as it is for other groups.

Has anyone on this thread said trans-identified females (aka transmen) should be automatically unwelcome in female spaces?

There's been resistance to being pushed into a carer role, there's been a wariness around the honesty of people who apparently despise women and show a commitment to upholding sex-role stereotypes, but also, on the whole, a preparedness to give a woman in that situation a chance to join a group on the same basis as any other woman.

Yes - hence my initial comment.

• Entitlement attitude. Don’t want to be a woman but want to turn up at women’s events. Sorry but just why?

• So why the hell call yourself a man when you still want to access all things women? Attention seeking bollocks.

• I suspect a lot of Frankie's discomfort ... comes from the fact that she knows she does not really belong at this group.. She's gone through huge health sacrifices to #become a man', realised other men don't want to be her friends and is now trying to get back into women's groups to make female friends

• If you're 'a man' go and join a male walking group?

• If you want to be accepted by men, dressing as a man, taking hormones to gain facial hair and more generally demanding to be treated like a man you shouldn't then access female spaces because you prefer them.

• If this individual wants to opt out of womanhood then why the fuck do they need to attend a women’s hiking group?

• If you want to be a fucking man, go and try your luck there and see if they embrace you as one of their own.

• So why would a transman want to go to a female only meet up. They've decided they're a man.

• They've rejected womanhood effectively. But then want to be in the very spaces they've effectively shunned in favour of wanting to be a man.

Trans-identified people will always have bodies belonging to their actual sex, and some actually do recognise and accept this. There are trans-identified females who would benefit from single sex space, particularly considering the high rates of prior sexual abuse and trauma as causative factors for attempting to identify out of womanhood.

I think there is a difference between saying that specific views and behaviours are unwelcome, which is absolutely fair, and that a woman is unwelcome only because she is trans-identified. How does that speak to women and girls struggling with their identity? Those who already feel in some way excluded from womanhood? How does it speak to women considering detransition? It only seems to encourage people to ignore the truth of their sex and further commit to the insanity and mistruth of being able to 'transition' to another sex.

I also think it is unfair to characterise all trans-identified females as despising women or upholding stereotypes. Sadly many do, but not all, and blanket statements are unhelpful.

Trans identification is upholding and promoting sex-role stereotypes. It's the only thing it can do. It is what it is.

And sex-role stereotypes express no respect for men or, particularly, for women.

That ignores the body dysmorphia aspect of the mental illness where distress is related to their sex physically i.e. distress by the presence of breasts, their genitalia etc. In many trans-identified people there is rejection of gender stereotypes by attempting to identify out of them, and the desire to change their body physically to match that identity then follows... but not always. Body dysmorphia is sometimes the predominant symptom. It doesn't follow that the right thing to do is for doctors to mutilate their healthy body any more than it would for another body dysmorphic condition such as anorexia or BIID. But it does point to a more complex pattern than being based on gender stereotypes in all scenarios.

Personally, I know trans-identified women who absolutely do not despise women nor use gender stereotypes to define themselves. There was a highly informative AMA thread here several months ago from a young trans-identified female who clearly could not be described in such a way. Again, blanket statements that treat a complex condition as if it has a single cause and explanation are unhelpful and inaccurate.

Anyway this is quite a tangent so I apologise to the OP. But my main point on this thread has always been that trans-identified females should be welcome in female single sex space. To suggest otherwise is to align oneself to TRAs, frankly.

No, mental illness still depends on stereotypes. Anorexia as much as trans identification. The only way to recover is to stop going along with it. And ultimately that is a job for the person with the illness and for their therapists.

A woman calling herself a transman is of course still a woman and entitled to be in women's single-sex spaces, but just as people with experience of anorexics might not seek out their company, likewise with the trans identified.

You haven't demonstrated how sex specific body dysmorphia is related to stereotypes. It can be, but in some cases it isn't clear where that link is or what the cause is. Again, I've already stated that mutilating the mentally ill is not the solution and they require actual mental health care. But that doesn't mean the underlying cause can be simply ascribed to a single factor. Almost no mental illness is so cut and dry like that, most are complex and multifactorial in nature.

The discussion wasn't about whether an individual should be compelled to seek out the company of a trans-identified woman. It was about whether that woman ought to be inherently unwelcome in female spaces, which was a position that was advocated here, as I demonstrated.

I didn't see where you linked to that.

I think visibly severely mentally ill people are often unwelcome in social settings, partly for the protection of other people who need to preserve their own mental stability, which may be more fragile than they let people at large know.

Whether they 'ought' to be unwelcome I don't know. I'm not sure that ordinary social settings are necessarily going to be easy for them to cope with, and they are not entitled to expect other people, who have their own needs and difficulties, and are at the thing, whatever it is, to do an activity they have chosen. to provide the unwell with extra supports.

Again I question a bit the oughts and the shoulds slipping in.

Some women will be fine with this. Some women will not be. Both positions are fine if you respect a woman's right to their own feelings, perspectives and needs.

Once women are told they 'ought' to welcome a group into their space regardless of their feelings and own thoughts because it is 'right' that they should overcome those feelings for a higher purpose, it's no different really to a male rape crisis leader insisting that women must reframe their trauma for that higher purpose. As Datun has said so well; it's the boot on the neck but just a chat about where it should be placed.

It's also necessary that those coming into women's groups take the same responsibility to do so with consideration for the women they are joining, and not to slide into carer/ recipient of care roles, however unintentionally.

For the second time you are comparing men violating female single sex space to a situation where no such violation has occurred. A trans-identified woman is still a woman, a trans-identified man will never be and should never access female only space. The only criteria to being a woman is being born female. Obviously a social group can exclude on whatever basis they wish, but general female single space will always be for all females regardless of identity.

Objection to sharing a facility with a trans-identified female is no more logical than objecting to sharing a space with a woman with certain political or religious views. I would not personally want to be friends with a far right evangelical Christian, but that does not give me the right to deny her access to female single sex space. It is no different for trans-identification. Either one believes in sex, which is fact, or one believes in gender as the TRAs do.

I just made a post where I gave multiple examples of people arguing that, because you questioned whether that was ever stated on this thread. I'm not sure what would have prompted me to comment against such sentiments had they not actually been expressed.

I've also already made clear that I don't expect any individual to pick up the responsibility of caring for a mentally ill person. I just don't agree with the rhetoric stating that trans-identified women ought to be excluded from female only spaces simply by virtue of that identity, nor the lack of nuance and understanding regarding why such an identity arises or the personal characteristics of what is a varied group of women.

I don't think those quotes are saying what you think they are saying. Many of the same posters have also said that trans men are women so should be generally accepted in groups like this.

What they are pointing out is that individuals like Freddy are being extraordinarily inconsistent, and often entitles, expecting to be seen as women or men depending on their own whim, sometimes with the expectation that others will just affirm them in the right way at the right time. ANd if you get it wrong you are denigrated as a bigot.

It's not a reasonable expectation and it should not be a surprise that a lot of women balk at it and have had enough of the childishness from grown adults.

Those are examples of people objecting to Frankie and to her sense of personal entitlement, using her own words and actions as the reasons they would find it hard to welcome her. Maybe they should welcome her, but they aren't saying anything about their attitude to any other woman.

Most of us react to our fellow humans on a case by case basis, not as a lump.

Transmen are women, but they carry patriarchal oppression and the assumptions it grows from around with them in the way they present.

Many women don't care for patriarchal oppression, whoever is bringing it along. If someone makes a great effort to display a particular view not just of the world in general but specifically of women, they have to accept that women might not like what they are saying about them.

Agree.

This has been very thought provoking. While on one hand I very much feel that as trans men are female they should retain the ability to enter women's spaces, we have to look at what that means for the individuals involved.

If I went to a women's anything group, it would be because I wanted female fellowship and freedom from the male gaze for a while. Anyone there that I read as male would change that dynamic.

As trans men have gone out of their way to be read as male, I cant help feeling that if the result of their appearing male is that women don't want them in women's spaces, there needs to be some personal responsibility taken for that. Otherwise this just feels like another stick to beat women with - we're not being nice enough. Why aren't men being criticised for not wanting to hang out with Freddie and similar others?

Also, I would be very worried about potentially misgendering them in public by inviting this 'man' to join the group - there no way I would attempt to guess the gender of an indeterminate stranger these days and I expect I'm not alone in that. And i would be worried that I might not speak for the other women there - they might have had their own reasons for not inviting the 'man' that i don't have the right to override.

I personally wouldn't be prepared to take on all that mental and emotional load out of altruism towards a stranger. And if you think this makes me a big meany (because how very dare a woman actually centre herself) 🤷‍♀️ sorry but I've got my own problems.

Years ago, before gender as we know it now was a thing, I spent a lovely evening chatting to a transman friend of a friend at a party.

My male partner wasn't usually jealous but got a right cob on, and I couldn't work out why. After the event he said we were too intimate, chatting 'like women do'.

The trans man may have passed physically but didn't pass socially. My partner had picked up on a difference in their communication style (whether biological, from socialisation or a mixture of both) from how most men would talk. I found that really interesting, and I can see why that might make it really difficult for trans men to socialise with men. It could be really lonely.

Still doesn't make it women's problem to solve though.

Most of the transmen I meet seem, to me, to be very typically female in their social persona or manner.

Not stereotypical - like mnot into gossip, "female" topics like fashion, etc. In that sense they may skew to a more masculine stereotype.

But very relational, feelings kinds of people. I spent half my adult years working in mainly male sectors, and they did not behave the way men tend to, even though they would probably have said they didn't fit in with feminine norms.

That is a very interesting observation @TempestTost - the transman I know best is scholarly, lively minded, exactly like any other scholarly and lively minded woman in her interactions, despite the name and the beard.

What can be done to make young girls feel safe just as they are? Why have the ridiculous stereotypes, that in my schooldays were seen as ridiculous stereotypes, gained such a grip on this generation? Is it all coming from the on-line world?

I don't know.

I sometimes think we've managed to create a generation of young people who are so deeply orthodox, doctrinaire, and conservative. What they are conservative about is progressivism and pseudo-marxist transhuman garbage, so they don't realize they are so reactionary, they think they are being forward thinking and open. But they are anything but.

I also find so many young people seem almost entirely lacking in a deeper sense of meaning in their lives, and real connection. A lot of what they do seems to be trying to fill a hole.

This smacks of John Calhoun's mouse experiment, to me. Does it anyone else?
Disclaimer I've had absolutely no sleep and might be brainless as a result.

www.the-scientist.com/universe-25-experiment-69941