Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

Trans men are women. I remember bumping into a bearded individual in the women's toilets. Instantly fear kicked in and I froze. Then within a second I clocked the height, the hips, the carrying angle, the lack of Adam's apple, the stance...and realised it was fine, just a trans man. Aka a woman. Fear gone.

Didn't sound like she talked to anyone but expected others to talk to her. Feminine voice to go with the wispy beard though.

TO be fair, I could grow a beard if I wanted to these days. I'd have not have liked that though, unless it was so obviously female that no fear kicked in at all. We shouldn't have to feel that in a female space.

Yes, it does seem a bit like that.

I do agree that you cannot change your sex by the way. It's just this whole 'Transwomen are women!' thing that's everywhere so by that reckoning, transmen are men? They can't have it both ways?

But other people say transwomen are men... you seem to be expecting them to say transmen are not women?

Seems that if you 'pass as a cis-man' and then turn up to a group that is aimed at anyone but, you shouldn't be surprised if no one realises you intend to be there or, indeed, particularly wants to socialise with you.

I still don't understand how you can identify as a trans-man (so positively trying to look/be masculine) and non-binary.

Whilst I am happy with trans men in women's spaces (because they're women) and think they never really pass, I don't really think it makes sense if you've gone to great lengths to try to appear male if you're then pissed off some women might have a fear response / be wary.

What a privileged bubble these women must live in if they can't have any empathy about the impact of their cosmetic changes on women who have cause to fear male violence.

Such a narcissistic ideology.

Also what is it about TRAs that being ignored = shunning. They're in for a nasty shock in later life. Just wait until they hit middle age or have children!

Being ignored is not a big deal - some resilience needed!

I don't understand how a trans man can be unwelcome in a female non binary space?
What is female non binary?
Transmen are women. But they don't identify as such so surely that's the kind of place that should be embracing them?

This seems to be a case of there not being an organiser there and that the group event might just self organise but were not aware that this person was there to join. Potentially, the person that they met the night before, should have sent out a message to say, 'hey, this person wants to come, please keep an eye out!'.

That sounds like a crappy experience. But then again, as others have said, they did not approach someone with questions. Of course, if you are very unsure of your reception, you may not put yourself in that position.

There really seems to be this need to see someone else just like them somewhere. On one hand, I understand this. But the reality is if you have chosen to identify in a particular way that only (supposedly) 0.5% of the population will look like, then you are unlikely to find your identity represented unless it is a specialised group.

What I heard from that video, is Frankie just turned up in a car park, lingered near a group (who didn’t have a fucking clue who Frankie was/not expecting them) and has got a massive cob on because non of them looked over and went “oh hey, you look like you might be non-binary, want to come for a walk?”. And the comments turned off show Frankie knows it’s a self indulgent BS video.

I just watched the video. I feel sorry for them for feeling excluded. But by the sound of it they just stood nearby and didn't talk to anyone and then went off and walked in the opposite direction? So probably no-one even realised they were wanting to join the group??

If I was in a women's walking group I would not mind in the slightest if this person joined - however if there was a person nearby with a beard I would probably not realise they were there for the group - also I would worry it might cause offence to ask a person with a beard if they were there for the women's walking group! And they can't really blame the organisers that there were no other trans men there as that is kind of beyond their control!!

Interesting how demands like these are always about other people changing / accepting / accommodating / speaking and never about being a grown up and accepting that as a woman, if you decide you think you're a man, women's groups may well politely ignore you. The desperate attempts to find fault (they didn't include me in the photos when they saw me wah wah ) are pitiful - you'd expect greater insight and resilience from an 11 year old fgs.

The fact that this performance is put online is a deliberate attempt to target that women's group. What's the difference between all the men trashing women's groups for their own ends - same levels of dislike of women and women's rights to autonomy I'd suggest.

This sounds like a social skills problem rather than discrimination.

She needs to learn how to introduce herself to new people.

Meh. Weirdo who doesn’t want to fit in doesn’t fit in. Why do they all end up crying? I’m irresistibly drawn to saying ‘Man up’.

Entitlement attitude. Don’t want to be a woman but want to turn up at women’s events. Sorry but just why?

I would join a mixed walking group (despite being a killjoy feminist I have a lot of male friends) or a woman's walking group.

I wouldn't join a woman and NB walking group because if it's gonna be mixed sex I don't want the only blokes to be pronoun people.

The type of women who would join a "female and NB" group might actually have been fearful of "misgendering" the transman by approaching them as that would have been admitting they clocked the transman as female.

A few years ago I saw a fair bit of stuff like groups and flatshares advertised for "afab only" but I think women were educated that it was transmisogynist to include transmen but exclude transwomen.

I am a little confused - so as a trans man this person has set out to intentionally present as male, whilst also - internally - identifying as non-binary (I’m not sure how you can do both). They then feared the embarrassment of not being recognised as being either female or non-binary, despite the point of the hormone therapy and choices over how they present being to deliberately obfuscate this, so self-excluded because they couldn’t see anyone else like them (how are you supposed to identify if someone is NB by looking at them, given the whole raison d’être of requiring pronouns is that we are not allowed to assume gender from appearance, is beyond me).

So this poor, troubled woman has effectively excluded herself (on so many levels) but it is everyone else’s responsibility to have resolved this?

I don't do TikToc but this looks like another 'look at me/dont look at me' microagression dilemma. You can't move for them these days.

If they asked her if she was there for the women's walking group, a different video would have occurred wailing about them assuming she was there for the women's walking group.

If they asked her if she was there for the women's walking group, a different video would have occurred wailing about them assuming she was there for the women's walking group

Absolutely. Look, Frankie, if you want to join a group, go and tell them you are here to join the group. Don’t sit around sulking that they weren’t sufficiently psychic to guess.

Is there a reason you reacted like that? If I saw a man minding his own business in the ladies' loos my reaction would be mild annoyance and an assumption they'd misread the sign, not petrification.

So This is a women’s group and NB group? She is a biological woman who believes herself to be a man. Why do they want to join the women’s group I thought they would want to go with the men and NB group? I genuinely can’t imagine a group that has set itself up as partly NB would have excluded Frankie though? I think they were terf hunting for TikTok likes.

Is that a real question? Do you genuinely not understand why a woman might be fearful of a male in a female intimate safe single sex space where women are vulnerable? Really? Have a think about it.

Some women find men in women's spaces frightening, good for you if you don't but nocool doesn't have to justify her primal response or relive past trauma to explain why she might find the presence of a man in the ladies unacceptable.