NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

I did a check on the old/recent pics though and I don't think DU's had any plastic surgery as some here have alleged. So the statement about having no medical treatment is probably one of the true things

Love the username - if only Fife had followed theirs?!

I don't think the child with anaphylaxis was being resuscitated and I don't believe any nurse would stop anyway, no matter who entered the room.

and the word cunt is? Do a search. yes, I take your point.

Well according to some doctor (possibly self-identifying, as is the style these days)

What Dr Upton is going to have is oodles of compassion and empathy from being treated like shit by society for most of her life! Likely more than most cis-females!

I fear for the observational skills of this doctor. Dr Upton has demonstrated a complete and total lack of empathy or compassion for anyone other than himself, and far from being treated like shit for most of his life, he's been traeted like a fucking emperor and has only been 'identifying as a woman' for 2 of his 28 years on this earth

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1inpif2/patient_consent_question_is_dr_upton_correct_in/

Glad to hear that people are complaining about Upton he is bringing the entire profession into disrepute with the words that come out of his mouth, his beliefs and his behaviour. He is eroding public trust in the medical profession.

I sincerely hope that medical professionals are also reporting him, it is time they stood up to this, where were they when Sandie Peggie needed them? Where are they now, have they spoken up in support of her to NHS Fife?

First, that he stated under oath that he would attempt to treat a patient who asked for a female doctor, thereby acting without the patient's consent. Which is an assault.

Do doctors and nurses want the public, who fund the NHS, to believe this is what they would do?

The time for quivering, cowardly silence is over.

One place it will never end up in is the Court of Appeal. Maybe the Inner or Outer House or the Supreme Court but I doubt Fife NHS would go that far and let's hope S P doesn't have to take it there.

Thanks KnottyAuty - do the press get access to the bundles?

Also, this is what DU said today re that incident: so he is lying one way or the other,

DU I was busy, stressed. It was late at night. Patient safety not compromised cos I can take ob s so don't immediately need to raise it. Can't recall why I didn't raise it earlier. Perhaps I was still naively thinking it was a lower level comms issue not patient safety.

I hope the J took that one down.

Checking shifts in common over Oct to Dec wouldn't be difficult- they would both be on a variety of shift types (nights, days, lates, earlys) so easy to rule out dates they would not have been in ED at the same time. A full time person would have 3 or 4 12 hour shifts in a week, it's not like 9-5 Mon-Fri when everyone is in at the same time.

Presumably Dr U can recall if the resus event was on day or night shift at least.

It doesn't sound like he reported any concerns at the time as he doesn't even know what date it happened on, which presumably means the patient cannot be identified and no one can verify if said patient even existed.

Reminds me a bit of a young Lars Ulrich.

I'm not sure this younger generation would have coped with the 70s and 80s. All that gender bending whilst knowing what sex is.

The public doesn't have access to the bundle, if I understand matters correctly?

I've not been able to view any of the proceedings so I don't know if bits are available to those who are watching.

Surely one of the main reasons that a patient would check this with the GMC is the desire to have a doctor who is e.g. a biological woman

The number of patients who want to know if their doctor falls into the group biological woman + transwomen must be vanishingly small

Oh my. £21k already. Well done you wonderful terven

Thanks @KnottyAuty.

Was KS's statement about the meeting(s) she had with DU relating to his grievances/complaints/concerns?

Did this come out today?

A lot of doctors on this Reddit are in support of Dr Upton, think that his identity should trump patient choice, and that patients who don't like it should not be treated. Is Dr Upton a bad apple, or is the barrel rotten?

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1inpif2/patient_consent_question_is_dr_upton_correct_in/

Was out today, so am way behind and catching up on thread 14, but dropping this here while I remember re SP being paid while suspended. She will have been, but I suspect just at the basic rate for her grade.

As she seems to have typically/frequently worked nights, which are paid at an enhanced rate, being paid the normal day wage could have meant a significant drop in earnings. Especially as she also won't have been able to do bank or overtime shifts, which a lot of nurses do for extra income.

The day/night difference in pay rates also means she suffered a similar detriment when she was allowed back from suspension, but only on day shift.

And it's not just immediate income affected. Because of the way NHS pensions are calculated, it will also have reduced her pension entitlement.

Ok a bit late to this thread was catching up with today hearing and other thread but 😱at KS potentially becoming a named respondent, she must be thinking that's she's got away with it relatively Scott free, I'm sure that tomorrow's x examination will be a harrowing experience for KS especially when she finds out how badly du she's thrown her under the bus and that she could well end up a named defendant 🤣🤣🤣🤣

The GMC must’ve received hundreds of complaints by now. I expect we will all receive identical responses. Something about no evidence of wrongdoing and freedom to identify as whatever he pleases.

If he loses this case they will presumably have to think again but in the meantime NHS Fife and BU will continue to ride roughshod over women’s boundaries.

What surprised me was that The Telegraph reported SP was working P/T in a different area of the hospital.

I think you should go back and read the TT because you need to look at both descriptions of the same event to decide which is more plausible. You can't possibly do that by getting bits and bobs off this thread. And it is at the heart of the case - who is the more plausible witness? NHS fife sided with DU but it is increasingly looking like they backed the wrong horse

How could KS be sure they were talking about the correct incident when Upton couldn't identify which incident it was because he didn't know the date?

And notably the incident wasn't recorded at the time.

Add to that KS's statement only comes after the fact. That means it could have been led / influenced by what Upton said in retrospect. And in doing so, lead KS about what SP was doing/intention was.

So Upton reminds KS about the incident (after neither reported), after Upton has had a good stew about how it can be framed. Then talks to KS about it with the suggestion of what happened.

Or worse Upton goes 'You're my mate, can you back me up on this because she's being transphobic and you wouldn't want me to be discriminated against now would you?'. And KS agrees to back up over an event that they can't remember which month it occured in...

We know that memory can be unreliable and the fact this incident wasn't recorded when it should have - immediately - precisely to reduce issues with this problem and theres such confusion over the date (thats a big window of time) and the feeling AT THE TIME wasn't to report it EITHER for safety or for hate really is interesting. And deeply problematic.

It makes it he said / she said with little reliability over the situation.Only a retrospective reflection of events which obviously weren't serious enough in ANY respect to merit reporting at the time.

Thank you, yes, that's the only bit I could find too (and only saw it in the Times article).

If that is the impression he gave Dr Searle, it makes me think he gave exaggerated reports to her/the trust investigators/the BMA.

Then when it turned out he'd be going to court, he realised he'd have to provide evidence, so gave more realistic/likely accounts.

There is an argument I guess that by "stopped doing resus" he meant stopped working in the resus room. But crikey if I'd said that, and someone had misinterpreted me to mean that someone had actually stopped in the act of resuscitation, I'd instantly correct them and make very sure that the info was understood and recorded correctly.

Wondering again, did he hope the ambiguity might be helpful i.e. trust/BMA think she has done something terrible and advise accordingly.

Though it's not so helpful when you're giving evidence in court.

Thank you to everyone who has raised this to the GMC. Hoping DS goes to school tomorrow so I can have time to crack the laptop out and get my own complaints drafted and sent.

The safety of patients should come first and foremost and after reading that reddit thread of doctors I've got a fire in my belly that this is something that shouldn't need spelling out but unfortunately we are having to spell it out. BU is not the only doctor who would act without consent however is the only doctor identifiable today which is unfortunate for BU, but even more unfortunate for the patients of doctors across the GMC jurisdiction who have also stated that they disregard patient consent.

Maybe the adjournment until July will be helpful. The GMC won't be able to wait - they can access the TT and see the wild stuff GU has said. It is all under oath and unforced testimony - their hand may be forced by the weight of public opinion - we can hope anyway!

Identifying however you please, is not the same as a complete on the record denial of biology under oath, whilst working in a field where knowledge of biology is essential to not hurting people in your care.

I'm confused by this because we only heard about SP not doing the IBS didn't we?

But then the Times article quotes this,

"Dr Kate Searle, Upton’s line manager, said in a statement: “Beth has all the notes including the incident where the other person appeared to leave the room and stopped doing resus because Beth entered. Unfortunately she didn’t raise it at the time.” x

Utterly shocking and I can see why NC was so sure that the allegations could have been "career ending"