Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

Editors want to please/placate authors, or at least not cause too many ructions with the red pen, because authors ultimately pay their salaries. And authors can be... mavericks? But a lot of the editors in that group seem to be immersed in a world where they themselves and everyone around them is gender-fluid. They subscribe to the 67 genders, or whatever it is. I've never really thought about this before because I tend to back away slowly when I come up against this stuff but you're right, they are captured. Some aspects of the group are, that is - I'm guessing the old-school US newspapers don't subscribe to it.

It's full of vair vair polite, earnest and well meaning middle class ladies. Many went to all girls private schools. They most definitely haven't had the experience of a teen girl in a council estate school having spotty oiks trying to get photos under the toilet doors.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry. My kids have been aware of this stuff for years and have always seen right through it.

We spend time talking about self-acceptance at home, particularly when it comes to body type, body image etc, which I can recommend. We are fortunate to have 2 girls and a boy and so the innate physical differences between the sexes have been apparent to them since forever, and as they grow older even more so.

Our eldest especially (year 10) has seen plenty of kids at school change their pronouns from one thing to the other and back again, and recognise that a pre-occupation with words doesn't change reality. My youngest still believes in Santa, and yet recognises that she has one body which can't be swapped for another at will, and which she needs to take care of.

I think there is a generation between me (49) and them which has fallen for this ideology the hardest, but even that will change in time x

Wait, how does Imane Khelif not respect women? She is a woman. She just has naturally high testosterone... she's not trans or whatever...

is this sarcasm?

Imane Khelif has naturally normal testosterone levels for a male. That's because he is a male.

@Helleofabore @FriedGold32 No, not sarcasm. Imane Khelif is female. She has naturally high testosterone, but that doesn’t make her male. The IBA’s issue with her was hormone levels, not sex. Also, just to add, Imane Khelif is Algerian and Muslim- there's no way she'd be transgender or transitioning in a society where that’s not even accepted or allowed. She’s a woman who’s just dealing with a hormonal issue, not some gender identity crisis...

I got a permanent site-wide Reddit ban for saying on the main UK subreddit that men aren't lesbians.

I just managed to dodge one for something similar, I just lurk now.

Khelif is male. Khelif has been reported to have the healthy levels of testosterone as a male should have.

If a female person had the testosterone levels of a male person, they would be gravely ill and likely not boxing. Happy to take you through all that.

No one is saying that Khelif is transgender at all. IBA stated clearly that Khelif is XY chromosomal. It has been therefore deduced that Khelif has one of the differences in sex development where they have XY chromosomes and have the ability to use the testosterone that their testes produce.

Khelif has certainly known their medical status since 2023, but likely to have known this from much earlier - such as when Khelif didn't menstruate and instead Khelif's body masculised.

One of Khelif's coaches confirmed that Khelif saw a Parisian Endocrinologist who confirmed the IBA finding.

reduxx.info/khelifs-coach-confirms-problem-with-chromosomes-as-spanish-national-boxing-team-commissioner-reveals-that-khelif-was-considered-too-dangerous-to-train-against-women/

I got told on here by someone who would describe themselves as ‘pro-trans’ that by using the word transwoman that i agreed that TWAW

I've had endless arguments with people who say variations on "TW are women, it's in the name" - yeah, that's why I don't use your Humpty Dumpty language.

IIRC the IBA don't even take testosterone levels, so that in itself is nonsense, he was disqualified from the World Championships because of his XY chromosomes. He's male.

www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/gender-row-boxers-were-disqualified-world-championships-after-chromosome-test-2024-08-05/

The fact that someone is XY chromosomal doesn’t automatically make them male. While typically, males are XY and females are XX, it's not that simple for everyone. Some women have XY chromosomes but still develop female physical traits and GENITALS due to a condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) or other differences in sex development (DSDs). These women can have male chromosomes but still be biologically female in terms of their external anatomy and reproductive organs...
Some women also have naturally higher testosterone levels, which is a characteristic that can sometimes happen in women with DSDs (which is what I explained above). Testosterone is typically higher in males, but women can still produce it in high levels. It’s about biology, not about gender identity. This is something she was born with... not choice.

No, not sarcasm. Imane Khelif is female. She has naturally high testosterone, but that doesn’t make her male. The IBA’s issue with her was hormone levels, not sex. Also, just to add, Imane Khelif is Algerian and Muslim- there's no way she'd be transgender or transitioning in a society where that’s not even accepted or allowed. She’s a woman who’s just dealing with a hormonal issue, not some gender identity crisis...

You are completely ill informed. Khelif has a male DSD. It's most likely to be 5-ARD like Caster Semenya.

Read my previous comment.

This specific issue is quite complicated; there's information that suggests Khelif perhaps has some sort of intersex condition, and possibly has XY chromosomes.

https://san.com/media-miss/algerian-boxer-imane-khelifs-leaked-medical-report-reveals-xy-male-chromosomes/

In a sane world, this is something that sports and medical experts would debate and come to a sensible conclusion about.

However, as there have been several cases where athletes who are obviously male have been allowed to compete against women, it makes sorting this out more complicated.

This isn't something clear cut, like with will thomas the swimmer - I don't think Khelif set out to compete in bad faith. I think she's discovered this due to the routine testing they do.

I did, Khelif is male.

You're right that this is a complicated issue, and I agree that sports and medical experts need to discuss it carefully. Imane Khelif likely has an intersex condition, as you mentioned, which could involve having XY chromosomes but developing female characteristics, which is not uncommon in intersex individuals. These conditions don’t make someone ‘male’... they are just a variation of biological sex. The point isn't about Khelif’s intentions or whether she’s competing in bad faith. It’s about the her chromosomes and hormones, which is why the IBA is concerned. But it's crucial to remember that a person having XY chromosomes doesn’t automatically make them male in a strict sense, especially when they don’t have male reproductive organs or typical male secondary sexual characteristics.

The fact that they have XY chromosomes and process the testosterone that their testes are producing do contradict your statement.

Have a look at the diagram I posted, I am happy to post actual range levels if you like. There is no cross over between a female athlete not taking testosterone and a healthy male athlete that needs to reduce their testosterone level.

Oh my god. Seriously. Oh my fucking god.

This insanity is never gonna fucking end, is it?

Khelif has gone through male puberty. That's pretty clear.

I second Helle's suggestion to look at range levels, that's very illuminating.

Well. Maybe one day.

We've debated the issue endlessly on other threads. You're entitled to your opinion, but mine is that Khelif is a male person.

Can you please explain the condition 5ARD that it has been anticipated that Khelif has?

Here is the information I have collated that refers to the diagram I have posted up thread.

TESTOSTERONE LEVEL CHART - NORMAL FEMALE RANGE / PCOS RANGE / NORMAL MALE RANGE

USING DAVID HANDELSMAN INFORMATION INCLUDING THE LEVELS IOC SPECIFIED FOR TESTOSTERONE SUPPRESSION

This is the chart was made using information from the Handelsman et al 2018 paper below.

The 'Caster Semenya' line refers to what the IOC had specified that Semenya and others needed to suppress their testosterone levels down to, resulting in Semenya trying to overturn this at CAS.

Semenya was noted in that CAS case to have the difference in sex development categorised as 5-ARD and had testosterone levels of around 21 nmol/L.

The Hubbard line was the testosterone level that males with transgender identities had to suppress to for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.

This is tweet where you can find the chart.

https://x.com/rorybowman/status/1819232725175620084

This is the study

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance

David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon
Published: 13 July 2018

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770?login=false

A poster once tried to say that Handelsman obviously supports testosterone reduction, however, this is untrue.

What is important to note here is that David Handelsman has since said this in 2022 on the SBS Insight episode after seeing further research.

“Question: does testosterone suppression get rid of the natural advantage males have?”

“It is important to remember that what we are talking about here is the unfair advantage so the objective is to eliminate it not just reduce it. But complete testosterone suppression has now be shown in a number of studies to not to fully nullify the advantages in males, in physical advantages for up to three years.”

“Suppression of testosterone is partially effective. It won’t change bones. They remain longer and stronger. Haemoglobin will change, but the key things muscle, heart and lungs virtually don’t change. Or they change very little, maybe 10 - 20% reduction. But 80% of the male physical advantage remains . So it is virtually incomplete, and no where near completely reversing male unfair advantage.”

“More on testosterone suppression:”

“The key thing is whether the male physical advantage is removed over a certain time. And the answer is there is no duration which removes the unfair male physical advantage of male bodied athletes in female events. The data shows that you can get some reversal, but no where near complete and therefore there remains an unfair advantage.”

I understand that you're referencing how testosterone is processed in individuals with XY chromosomes and the distinction between male and female levels in the diagram. But, even though Khelif may process testosterone similarly to men, it doesn’t automatically make her male. There are women with XY chromosomes who don’t have male secondary sexual characteristics or testes, yet still produce higher testosterone levels naturally due to conditions like DSDs. It’s a biological variation...
The real issue here isn’t the exact nmol/L of testosterone but the fairness of applying those levels uniformly across all athletes, regardless of the underlying biology. Khelif is a female athlete with a natural hormonal imbalance- she's not intentionally seeking an advantage or trying to pass as male. The current regulations should consider these variations, and it’s not a simple comparison to male athletes who naturally produce higher testosterone.