Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

This is the sort of approach I took with patient notes, when I had a patient who would describe themselves as having different pronouns than what is biologically real.
But what they were in hospital for, was very much something that can only happen to one sex.
In the notes it was all 'the patient reported' 'informed patient that...' . Can't use the real pronoun, think I might get in trouble for that.
Difficulty is, beyond that I refuse to have words put in my mouth:

1. Medical notes are supposed to be truthful and a record of fact.

1. Notes are often used in the event of complaints or litigation. Sometimes years after the fact; 15 or 20 years time, this stuff might be considered total nonsense by everyone - would this affect how what I've written down is seen? I.e less reliable/truthful.

1. If the notes are needed, and the patient is no longer describing themselves with those pronouns, might it be assumed I've written about the wrong patient, and I intended to write in another set of notes. Seen it happen.

In Ireland abortion for men is still illegal and since 2015 every year about 50 "birthing bodies" get a GRC per law 1

Men can get literally actually get pregnant.

Law 1

18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Law 2

“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;

“woman” means a female person of any age

23.
(1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.

(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

100% this. Any sympathy for Khalif is irradiated by the fact that he chose to continue fighting women for sport. You could just about forgive if we were talking about darts, but this is the most dangerous of high-contact sports. It's just wrong, on every level, and he knows how wrong it is.

For those who are still wondering about Khelif, it turns out that the professional boxing organisations are likely to reject Khelif’s joining them as well.

It is not just the IBA, EUBC it is also now WBCouncil and WBA.

“Two of the global sanctioning bodies, the World Boxing Association and World Boxing Council, have expressed profound concerns about either Khelif or Lin being permitted to turn professional.”

https://archive.is/YV6FF

How many boxing organisations excluding these boxers will cause people to think that the language being used by media and the IOC and those supporting the boxers have created a mess which covered up the fact that at the Olympics two male boxers were punching women. And all the dismissal about the IBA being not creditable… just meaningless sparple, distraction from the truth.

While people placated themselves on ‘the IBA are corrupt and I won’t listen to them’, they supported these male boxers putting female boxers at risk. I expect they will find some other distraction from the professional bodies excluding them too. All because the media keeps using female words for Khelif.

Language is such an important tool.

I wonder when Occams Razor will kick in with the public’s understanding about Khelif and all those other male athletes described as ‘women with high testosterone’?

For me it was a case of ‘fool me once’ upon understanding about Semenya. But once you have read enough and understood the manipulative nature of the language limitations, I don’t think people go back to just believing.

As a feminist, it’s always sports where I feel most sympathetic.

I believe sports and physical exercise are vital. I think everyone should be able to access it for their physical and mental health. I’m more sympathetic to trans women preferring to be in female sports clubs than I am when they want to be in female toilets, and changing rooms.

I completely understand the “otherness” of a sporting community and how men would exclude trans women physically or mentally from sports clubs.

This is the strong “third space” option I want to help support.

I totally get that the world can feel bigoted and it can make life and your preferred choices difficult. This is where the pronoun issue is most important. If women and girls can use accurate sex based pronouns - the issue becomes much clearer. Women should not have men in their sports. Women should not lose accolades to men. Men should not be physically competing in a women’s category.

If men’s sports are not kind to you - that’s a man problem. If your best option is to not play in the men’s categories, let’s help you get a third space.

If women can call it as it is - talk about trans identified men wanting to play in their teams, or combat against them, somehow it doesn’t feel like women should just “be kind” any more.

If we look at the athletes competing who have been asked to take DNA tests to check for DSD there is massive overrepresentation of women of colour. I remember the calls years ago for Serena Williams to make her medical information public! The "transvestigation" of athletes can be really nasty and invasive, but there is clearly a popular public argument for fairness in female sport.
Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

As I understand that the Olympics and some high level sporting events did do entry medicals on women but (obviously) not men.

And at one olympics ( 70's?) a canadian ice skater visually female was found to have a DSD via what ever medical test was done ( may have been too high testosterone level) and was disqualified.

Yes. Every female participant should undergo sex testing before competing. It is the only fair way to do this.

And I believe that is what World Athletics will be reinstating. It was the way it was done pre Atlanta games.

Yes. Women athletes are strongly in favour of cheek swabs, for all.

Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

I think most of them supported testing, last time anyone bothered to ask them, so yes. It looks like World Athletics are bringing this in now so hopefully all other sports will follow suit and it will trickle down further than elite competition.

And there was the Austrian skier who was also picked up and decided since he loved skiing so much that it would not stop him so he just competed as a male.

But today, how many of these athletes don't know that they are male or have they ignored some significant health issues that would have indicated that they were male?

I'd imagine some female athletes would welcome testing. Basic chromosome test isn't invasive, and presumably they can be tested for testosterone anyway because of the possibility of it being used as a performance enhancing drug?

The 'racial bias' is, of course, primarily due to inequities in healthcare and so later diagnosis of DSDs in some nations vs 'the west'. Exacerbated by cynical exploitation by 'talent scouts'.

ww.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

From the article "At the time of testing, all female athletes at the Atlanta Games were offered a questionnaire written in both English and French asking whether in their view testing of females should be continued in future Olympics and whether or not they were made anxious by the testing procedure.18Of the 928 athletes who responded, 82% felt that testing should be continued and 94% indicated that they were not made anxious by the procedure. Forty-six athletes were made "anxious" by the testing requirements that preceded their competitive events. No males were found to masquerade as females, and all females who were found to be SRY positive competed. While a similar proportion of females failed the test as in previous Olympics (Table 2), it is noteworthy that on this occasion no false positive tests were found and no athlete was barred from competition.'

So, 82% of the women answered that they felt sex testing should continue when surveyed at the 1996 Olympics. This was ignored.

You are making objections up to suit your position. This is all nonsense.

Every athlete takes a cheek swab, as they embark on their career - and that's the end of it. There is nothing nasty, invasive or racially problematic here at all.

What I always say to people about this, is that when people in places like the UK are born with these kinds of DSDs now, they are raised as boys. ANd organizations for people with DSDs worked hard to make that the standard.

It's only where it happens that the actual sex isn't recognized early on that you get situations where these boys are brought up as girls initially. Even then though it seems to become clear often what has happened as they grow, even before puberty.

At that level athletes (M&F) are tracking foods by brand as well as medicnes. And someone has given them a list of what brand they can eat and if its not on the list they know an ingredent could create a failed drug test.

Both M & F are tested for testosterone.

One cheat that was said to be happening is blood draws with higher O2 and transfusing that back before a compitition.
Another for women was blood via a planned abortion as her body ramps up to support extra physical demand from the baby.

And China was said to have made DSD policy a target not a limit.

The point is that Khelif is biologically male.

The point is that you can't use social behaviour to prove someone's biological sex, even in a Muslim country.

https://www.boxingscene.com/will-olympic-gold-medalist-imane-khelif-become-a-professional-boxer--201192

Another example of how language becomes so important to distract from what people perceive with their eyes and from other information sources.

No, the point is males shouldn’t be in female sporting categories.

Was the Cass Report a catalyst in that it may not be applicable to every situation but it gave a lead to the way many think.
Validation? Permission to form our own opinion not join 'groupthink'?

No, the point is in this case it rather blows a hole in the 'poor thing, raised as a girl' line from another poster.

Oh wow.

cheats will really go to any lengths!