Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

XY ATHLETES WITH TESTES: INFORMATION FROM CAROLE HOOVEN

Thread starts here there are charts linked in one of the tweets below:

First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits.

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone.

DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.

The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed.

I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence.

Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.)

For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes.

For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2).
The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups.
The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)."

"Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)."

Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.
We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

and the charts are posted incase they are lost in the future but are in this tweet.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819046454922518835

If Khelif had CAIS, she wouldn't be able to process the testosterone to produce the kind of muscles you can see in that photo.

koolkatxx - You're right that sometimes XY can be counted as female. As you mentioned there's CAIS (where they can't make use of testosterone) and Swyers which are the most common. AFAIK both are associated with osteoporosis/osteopenia so... boxing? Not really likely.

Much more likely as PP have mentioned that it's 5ARD, which is a condition that only affects males. They can be misidentified as female at birth because their genitals don't develop properly. However they do go through male puberty, can have internal testes and also possibly (with help) father children. Both parents need to be carriers so there can be clusters of cases in more isolated communities.

If you were a trainer/promoter looking for the ideal candidate for a "female" boxer, which would you pick?

Khelif is a male athlete. Khelif was allowed to participate in the Olympics because the OIC allow male athletes with particular DSDs to compete if their passport says they are female, even if it is an error made at birth and discovered later but the passport isn't changed.

Here is the history of how that OIC regulation came about if you are interested:

A VIEW ON HOW MALE ATHLETES GOT TO COMPETE IN THE PARIS OLYMPICS 2024

1999 - From what I gather, from the Nature article posted up thread, is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the 1999 the OIC removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Ie. My understanding is that the group campaigned that any male with a Difference of Sex Development that had been incorrectly registered as 'female' on their passport was to never be sex tested by the IOC again and allowed to compete as if they were female, regardless of whether they had gone through male puberty.

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

2004 - Then in 2004 they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

https://nequals8.com
^https://cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes^
https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review.

The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf#_ga=2.219716894.621299853.1686571450-594927581.1678187184

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

That is where we are now.

It's irrelevant that Khelif "didn't chose" to have XY chromesomes and the advantage of male puberty. The simple fact is that he does, and therefore should not be eligible to compete against women.

No. That's nonsense.

He's a male with a DSD. No woman has testosterone levels in a male range.

I just wanted to clarify that while I see and understand everyone's points, I don't want to continue debating further. I do agree with some aspects of the argument, particularly regarding fairness in sports, but when it comes to Imane’s situation, I believe it's a bit more complex. I respect where everyone is coming from, and I think these discussions are important to have, but I feel differently in her case.
For the record - I am not someone who supports males in female sports, I don't support trans women in women's sports either.

"There are women with XY chromosomes who don’t have male secondary sexual characteristics or testes, yet still produce higher testosterone levels naturally due to conditions like DSDs. It’s a biological variation..."

Take us through this please.

By the way, no female athlete has to reduce their natural testosterone levels to compete in sport . None.

It has been reported that Khelif's coaches have stated that Khelif was reducing Khelif's testosterone level to compete in the Olympics. This would not happen if Khelif was a female athlete.

And again, no female person produces enough testosterone to have to be 'reduced' in any case.

You have assumed that Khelif doesn't have testes. Please provide the proof of this statement. Because the IBA medical team, which includes doctors with specialties in understanding testosterone effects on bodies, have stated on the record that Khelif has masculinised.

But female is not the default if someone is 'not male'. That's why sports and medical experts need to unpick this, to see whether or not it is fair for her to be competing against athletes who are definitely biologically female.

Another issue as well, is that this is a contact sport - its not swimming or 100M where the consequences of a bad call on who can compete is someone winning the medal unfairly (though that is not a small consequence).

Its boxing - an athlete could be seriously injured. MMA fighter Fallon Fox, who is male, competed with female MMA fighter Tamika Brents. The fight left brents with a concussion, a skull fracture and requiring 7 staples.

Its really important the right call is made on this.

Emphatically insisting Khelif is a woman does not make it fair or safe to compete with athletes who are definitely female.

I used to be scared of being outed as a TERF (what would my Labour Party friends think! 😱) but all the way back in 2018 a wise woman told me to write it/think of it as ‘terf’ rather than ‘TERF’.

Takes all the power out of it and makes it a funny little word that we can play with.

Terf, plural terves (like hoof/hooves or dwarf/dwarves) becomes tervern & tervish (‘she’s one of the tervern clan’ ‘she’s part of the tervish sisterhood’).

‘oooh, that sounds a bit terfy! Say it louder so the men at the back can hear it too!’

I also enjoy:

Using they/them as one word*
Using they as an actual singular pronoun eg ‘they is over there’ and/or using they/them backwards eg ‘them is over there’
Ironically embracing the rebrand of biological women as uterus owners and cervix havers by calling biological males ‘people with prostates’ and ‘anyone who has, or has had testicles’ etc and insisting that single sex spaces be divided on these grounds and labelled as such to avoid ‘unnecessary transphobia’ (ie a giant penis drawing on the door of what used to be the gents but is now for ‘penis people past and penis people present’).

I also enjoy using TRA language extra enthusiastically until they declare it terf talk and decry it as verboten eg ‘womxn’

I stopped using cross sex pronouns for anyone, even the nicest trans people a couple of years ago, of course for a while (on Mumsnet) that meant learning to write in a clunky repetitive way that always used a person’s name instead of a pronoun - this can also be quite amusing tho, eg ‘Dr Uptonself’ (just as a topical example) instead of himself/herself.

of course, the Ricky Gervais way of saying ‘HER penis’ can also be useful in it’s utter absurdity.

Lately I have even mostly completely quit using ‘Transwoman’ (one word, no space) in favour of ‘Man who says he’s a woman’ or ‘Male who claims to have a female gender identity’ or ‘Man who has medically or surgically altered his appearance to look feminine’.
(I will now only use transwoman when talking to a fence sitter if I think using the more direct and factual phrasing will make them afraid to hear the arguments)

*the Trump campaign’s ’Trump is for you, Harris is for they/them’ was very clever. So good I wondered if their marketing team had been swotting up on MN FWR!

All the evidence revealed so far indicates that Khelif is male. The lab report showing XY karyotype, a member of Khelif's own team saying that Khelif has a problem with chromosomes and hormones (and is on medication to regulate testosterone to female levels), and snippets of a leaked medical report stating that Khelif has the sex developmental disorder 5-ARD - which only applies to males.

Plus the clear difference in performance in the Olympics (winning gold in straight 5-0 matches), the head of the Spanish team reporting that Khelif had to spar with their male boxers due to strength differences with female team members, declining to pursue a case with the CAS after the IBA disqualification.

No evidence has been shown that Khelif is female other than having an "F" on identity documents. Which isn't uncommon for 5-ARD males where the underdeveloped/malformed penis may be mistaken for female external genitalia.

Why do you believe that Khelif is female?

And i understand that…not going to debate either

but if Imane was female with a female DSD we would absolutely have the evidence right now.

I think you are misinformed or have not read the depth of information that is already known about this case. What you have posted even defies the logic of how Khelif came to be competing and why Khelif was allowed to compete.

You are making claims that are false regarding testosterone in female people.

If you support a male with a masculinising DSD to compete in the female sporting event, you are indeed supporting males in female sports.

RE: IMANE KHELIF & LIN YU-TING What the IBA said

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

This part is relevant

'On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023. This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations. This decision, made after a meticulous review, was extremely important and necessary to uphold the level of fairness and utmost integrity of the competition.'

and

'This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.'

So, the statement is really in two parts:

Not xx

Found to have physical advantages

Athletes that don't meet the 'required eligibility criteria' for the IBA's female category is quite simple. They state in their regulations, that female competitors are those who are XX.

p9 on the IBA Technical Competition Rules,

www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competition-Rules-v7-clean.pdf

These competitors have also been found to have competitive advantage. The only way for that to be true is if those male athletes have gone through puberty.
I also believe this statement shows that the IBA certainly also had in mind to make allowances for boxers who were male but with CAIS. Hence they have used two claims here to explain the exclusion of these male athletes. Neither of which has been directly addressed or refuted by the IOC.

The IBA also restated their position

https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-reaffirms-the-position-and-removal-of-boxers-from-all-events/

Thanks for sharing the information, and I understand your perspective. I don’t want to get into a back-and-forth, but I’ll take the time to look at the links and sources you provided. I still have my reservations, but I see your points, and I appreciate the opportunity to learn more. I’ll leave it at that.

And here are the links to the leaked Endocrinologist's report:

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/11/4/the-imane-khelif-matter-resurfaces-can-we-find-in-it-somehow-our-common-humanity#:~:text=The%20obvious%20tension%20in%20the,These%20are%20matters%20of%20identity.

https://lecorrespondant.net/imane-khelif-ni-ovaires-ni-uterus-mais-des-testicules/

It says:

A June 2023 medical report found Khelif has a difference in sexual development

— it’s formally called ‘alpha-5 reductase type-2 deficiency’ — with XY chromosomes, internal testes and a “micropenis.”

A hormone test showed a “male-type testosterone level of 14.7,” the French story says, “while the female gender does not exceed the maximum level of 3.”

I have just posted the leaked endrocrinologist information.

I would also suggest that if you still have doubts, just watch for the IBA now taking the OIC to court about this decision and the Lin decision. It is likely to be a sure way to have to have these athletes produce medical testing results that will be recorded for the world to see.

But the reality is, no female with natural testosterone production ever has to reduce their testosterone to compete in a female event.

No healthy female athlete is likely to produce a level of testosterone. We have this information from a PCOS advocate.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus there is this:

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus this discusses the ranges

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus that Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

We have more information if you want it. Please just ask. Many of us have had this very discussion over and over and over so we know where to find the links.

It is worth remembering that the only 'evidence' that Khelif is female is an F marker on their passport. That is it. There is zero actual biological evidence.

And it is very easy to understand how a male with a DSD would end up with this marker.

There are no female DSDs that would align with Khelif's physicality.

This is a great example though of where inaccurate language allows harm to female people. And I am not blaming koolkat here, because it actually takes having this discussion on this site and twitter to sort through the misinformation.

It really did start back in the 90s when activists for male people with DSDs campaigned successfully to the OIC to allow them to compete based not on science, but on manipulatively using human rights. And then the media has been forced to use unclear and false language.

The media keep perpetuating this myth of 'just a woman with naturally high testosterone'. And they do it for numerous reasons, and only some to be kind to the person they are discussing.

Once Semenya's 5ARD proof had to be published, those media outlets still have to use that language. But other people don't have to, and society doesn't have to believe it. Caster Semenya is a male athlete with a DSD that only male people have.

Khelif's medical report has been leaked with the same DSD and there has been nothing said by Khelif's team except to say 'we will be suing'.

Genuinely though, how would any female person produce testosterone levels that would need to be reduced to play sport without it being a very serious health issue that would likely mean they would not be competing in sport?

What conditions do you think produce that level of testosterone that leaves a female person with (7.7–29.4 nmol/L) of testosterone that doesn't require a very serious medical treatement?

Genuinely, this is not a 'hormone imbalance', although I completely understand people who post that it is. Because that is the terminology used in the media.

Also, language based.

Many of the problems with gender theories/ideology are caused by language - often when people are trying to reverse engineer reality by changing the words used to describe it.

Re MNHQs stance on pronouns, while afaik the guidelines are unchanged, the way in which they're applied is no longer as draconian as it used to be. I think there was a shift in the wake of the Forstater ruling. I'd be fairly sure you'd be asking for a deletion if you persistently used a name or pronoun which another poster had rejected in a similar way I could object to someone calling me 'cis', which would be congruent with that ruling I believe.

Why do you think Imane Khelif doesn't respect women? Poor thing, I think nobody has properly considered how it must feel for her and her family coming from the country and society she comes from. She was raised as a girl and as far as they are concerned, she is a woman, so all this outrage must be so painful for her and her family, they will all be mortified.

This is purely your own assumptions here.

A male person, who knew that they were male since 2023, would understand that their physical power in the ring was a significant risk to female people. There were already testimony that Khelif would have understood this due to coaches decisions in a Spanish coaching camp where they decided it was unsafe to the women there to bout with Khelif. Not because of 'skill and talent'.

So, how can it be that a male person respects a female athlete by deliberately putting them in danger of serious injury?

And by deliberately, I mean, they chose to compete in the Olympics knowing the medical information that they did. They saw an opportunity and they took it. They were not the only one to do this, but it was indeed a very deliberate decision on Khelif and Lin's parts.

Not sure how you can call that respecting female people. I look forward to reading how though.

Because she doesn't concede that she's a "male person".

Why would Khelif 'concede' this when to compete in the Olympics there was no need to?

Again, this is a great example of how language produces misleading information to be replicated throughout the world.

I'll save my 'poor thing' sympathies for the women who had to either be punched by a male (whether that person admits the truth or not) or cede the match, as will most posters on a feminism board.