Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

Are MNHQ still doing pronoun deletions? Not had one for ages, on any thread.

I don't think it's a problem here, but it's an instant ban on Reddit for "hate" or failing to "remember the human".

One of the biggest milestones in this battle will be when Reddit eventually quietly updates its rules to restore the ability to have a balanced debate.

I got a permanent site-wide Reddit ban for saying on the main UK subreddit that men aren't lesbians.

It's remarkable how much more easily I sympathise with a "she" as opposed to a "he", even when they're the same person!

Does it work this way for everyone, I wonder? Do the "men are so oppressed!" weirdos on Reddit have it the other way round?

Yes, absolutely! I've noticed this too. And not just the BBC reporting. Also sky news and another newspaper article. Very very careful to not use any pronouns for Dr Upton.

It made for slightly clunky reading as it was all Dr Upton stated that "blah blah" but no (s)he said, (s)he replied.

None on the DU threads

Everyone using he but then NC uses he in the tribunal

She's a major help to women using the correct sex, another fantastic woman doing something to move this on

It's so stupid. I got permabanned from Reddit for commenting on the Adam Laboucan case, saying that he should never be released from prison. Endless pronoun patrolling even for the vilest of men.

I have seen it happen fairly recently. Not on the Upton case or similar. But certainly on some threads it gets mass reported and is obviously deemed a thread that people should be sensitive to misgendering.

I haven’t been on the Upton threads, are the usual censuring posters there?

Reddit is not representative of IRL. There's some people on there who are rabidly pro-trans, and they drive most subreddits off platform who are any shade of GC.

Only sub I can think of is r/fourthwavewomen, and I think they're fairly careful on what they allow to be posted so the sub doesn't get banned.

Also, think about who is going to have the most time to make posts on Reddit - the busy mum with 3 kids, a husband, part time job (who as a result of her life experiences, is very aware of the effect her biological sex has on so many aspects of her life)? Or the TRA, who has no kids and no significant other, because they have a repulsive personality?

The second has way, way more time to make angry Reddit comments, downvote posts and report people. So it feels like there's more of them. There isn't, they just have disproportionately more free time.

I have been watching. It is much rarer now but I am not certain it is a blanket decision to allow correct sexing.

@Helleofabore I am still wary on some threads

It looks like DU is fine but not sure about all cases

Agreed. Particularly I can think of a few posters I interact with regularly who would report the shit out of my posts if I used correct sex pronouns. They have already told me in threads they report me for using ‘male people’. They are that incensed that people don’t comply to their group’s language conventions.

That's the aim with the pronouns, to make you feel more sympathetic.

At a surface level it seems like it's just 'being kind'. But really, it is requiring you to make a public affirmation that you agree with their belief system.

I remember I saw a big brother section, where everyone was going found saying their pronouns. The social pressure to conform to this must be pretty significant. I grew up in a very religious household - it really reminded me of saying grace, or everyone saying amen at the end, just the feel of the whole scene.

If I'm in a situation, and I have been, where it's tricky in terms of pronouns, e.g I'm expected to use the wrong ones, I'll avoid using pronouns altogether. I don't exist to affirm other people's views of themselves.

Why don't I get to choose my own title? Why can't I be Dr Blob, Lady Blob if that's what I identify as? Yet in the case of this, there is obvious physical evidence to the opposite - an obvious 'he' demanding to be called 'she'. Kowtowing to him means you are having to go along with his belief system, and state obvious falsehoods as if they are reality.

Girls I think are much more socialised to be kind, be nice, be pleasing to others, and it means we are far less likely to act in our own interests. That's why women get way more vitriol when they make a stand on this issue, they are breaking a social expectation of them.

Reddit was a revelation!

I think it can be quite instructive to recognise the depths of some people's delusional thinking on the trans subs! The reaction to the Upton business is a particularly rich seam.

But along with #NoDebate, these subs are their own worst enemies as they bans outside voices in order to keep the echo-chamber pure. In some ways it's useful to have all this rabid misogynistic reality denying drivel kettled into one area, feeding off itself, while the rest of us wearily set about undoing the remarkable harm this insidious ideology has caused both to its adherents and female victims.

Reddit is very good if you need an answer to a specific technical question, as Google just gives you advert list or whatever now. There'll be someone out there on some obscure subreddit very obsessed with your specific issue.

But some of the overall philosophical or social views on there are very different to the actual average normal person, because of who has the most time to spend on Reddit.

I work in book editing, and there's a subset of editors that have gone totally bonkers on pronouns (IMO). One of the basic rules of editing has always been consistency. So, you make choices re. spellings etc and stick to them throughout. But now, according to a FB editing group, the done (respectful) thing if someone has several pronouns is to cycle through them in each paragraph. The example given was something like 'Alex likes fantasy fiction but his friends persuaded them to try romance'. I had to read the example twice before I worked out that 'them' wasn't a group. And yet the number one rule of editing is to be understood by your readers. It goes totally against our training.

It's strange that publishing became one of the most captured industries of all. Any thoughts on why?

Fantasy is their reality.

Interesting

Reddit is very good if you need an answer to a specific technical question, as Google just gives you advert list or whatever now. There'll be someone out there on some obscure subreddit very obsessed with your specific issue.

But some of the overall philosophical or social views on there are very different to the actual average normal person, because of who has the most time to spend on Reddit.

The same applies to Wikipedia, unfortunately, on some subjects.

Given that no one will ever address themselves in the third person, and that if I'm in the same room as someone I will just use their name, the obsession over policing pronouns has always seemed like a huge overreach to me. It's pure validation, nothing more.

My kids (10,12 and 14) come home from school with jokes about pronouns these days (a personal favourite being the one about the female non-binary panda who was a 'herbivore'). To my mind once the kids are ridiculing something, the bubble of pomposity has well and truly burst.

There is yet hope.

I'm pregnant with my first child. I really worry about this ideology, will it still be in schools in 5 years time when they'd be due to start?

I choke on enforced pronouns. I would genuinely describe the cognitive dissonance as torturous. It does give me some sympathy for those with genuine body dysmorphia - I guess they believe what they believe so strongly that hearing four equals four is their mental torture. The idea that someone else has to take their pain away and live it instead is where my sympathy evaporates. My rage is mainly for a mental health system and political system that validates this.

This is the approach I use which actually can be quite powerful. I never use the word she for any man but I may just overuse their name. Eg 'Lara can say whatever Lara wants but I don't have to agree.' Let the name make the point.

I got told on here by someone who would describe themselves as ‘pro-trans’ that by using the word transwoman that i agreed that TWAW

load of bollocks

i am happy to refer to the transpeople i know by the pronouns they prefer, I will not use them for cheating males or rapists etc

i know rationally that this is stupid but this is me at the moment