Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

Same with the "it's an adjective" shtick.

Nurse peggie looks nothing like a man 🥸

If "she" had been raised as a girl, right through to adulthood, her family wouldn't have allowed "her" to be out in the street playing football with boys, which is where "she" was talent-spotted.

Yup. Can’t find it now, but there was a photo on Twix a while back of teen Khelif out in a cafe with his male mates. Transitioning may be frowned upon in that society, but realizing your son is male when his micropenis unmistakably grows at twelve, followed by other male, pubertal changes, might well mean being accepted as male, especially if you are from a place where 5-ARD is common.

Because it's a rich white posh London-centric monoculture that likes to think of itself as progressive

Pronouns are the grease on the slippery pole of the "getting men into women's spaces" movement.

Best to always use sex based pronouns.

@koolkatxx You realise its already been proven that Khelif has internal testes/prostate/micropenis and no uterus ovaries or cervix, right? Its no longer in question that he's male, its already proven by French medical tests he's male. You're behind. https://www.francsjeux.com/en/short/A-medical-report-relaunches-the-Imane-Khelif-case/

"Algerian boxer Imane Khelif, gold medalist at the Paris 2024 Games in the under 66 kilos category, is actually a man. The document details the results of a medical examination conducted in June 2023 at the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, with the support of the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers. It states that the boxer, at the center of an interminable controversy during the last Games, has XY chromosomes, typically associated with the male sex, and has internal testicles. The examination also reveals the presence of a micropenis and the absence of a uterus, symptoms of a disorder called 5-alpha reductase deficiency, which alters sexual development."

Women do play football in Algeria... some of the cultural evidence held up for IK being male is a bit dodgy TBH. It would be quite normal for someone IK's age not to wear a veil for instance.

But do the girls/women play with the men though?

Not as adults afaik. But I wouldn't be surprised if they had kickabouts as kids.

As 17 year olds?

Yes, as it turns out: https://inside.fifa.com/news/pioneer-belala-guiding-algeria-s-next-generation

I regularly see comments (not so much on this thread but definitely on past ones) that no Algerian woman would ever do this or dress like that. Well, Algerian women do lots of different things. Some wear veils, some play football, some are government ministers. Bit like most other places really.

Is she from a very rural conservative background as we are told Khelif is? or is Khelif not from a very rural conservative background and we are being told this to evoke an emotional response?

I mean, well done that woman by the way. She sounds awesome.

Dunno. There's a limit to the amount of digging I will do. I did see that Tiaret where IK is from has a female football club though.

Great. But Khelif was talent scouted at 17 playing football with the boys not girls/women.

As was Nadia Belala.

Does Nadia have XY chromosomes and internal testes too?

Not the point. The point is that people regularly say IK must be a man because no Algerian woman would act / dress like IK. That is not good evidence. IK's biology is better evidence. DuetotheDirt's quote above is a case in point: Algerian girls can and do play street football with boys.

Well I don't have any first-hand information on this. I'm going on articles like this one https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5442g3vxlo, which says "The eldest of six sisters and one brother, she [Imane] grew up in Ain Mesbah, a rural village where traditionally only boys would play outside, and girls would rarely leave their homes. Imane’s sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with boys."

Contradictory, no?

Maybe IK's family was strict, or maybe it's been spun that way as it makes for a good story. Who knows. All I'm saying is IK playing sport with boys is not in and of itself good evidence that IK is male.

I haven't RTFT but thought I'd mention this post on X which addresses the use of language and how it's manipulated, it's a powerful read:

x.com/rob_thabuilder/status/1779181667715883383?s=46

It's evidence that the people around IK think IK is male.
Ditto the way the boxing coach slaps IK on the chest.
Basically it's all reason to doubt that IK was brought up as a girl and had no inkling IK was male until the sex screening tests.

Re 'terf' - suffragette was also a word coined as an insult. Next time anyone calls you a 'terf', just see it as a badge of pride. It means you're:

a) capable of seeing through their bull
b) brave enough to openly contradict them

I think there's many, many people in group a, who don't also fit in group b - no wonder, people have been sacked and hounded for this.

Sadly, despite your protests, you are supporting male participation in female sports.

Whatever sob story about socialisation lies behind it, Khelif fits far more cleanly into the male subset than the female subset.

We don't get to choose our innate qualities, whether we are trans or not. This goes for DSD individuals too.

I refuse to 'be nice' any more about this shit. I'd rather be truthful.

I have a family member with DSD so I’m very sympathetic.

from what I read at the time - Khelif was probably born with female appearing genitalia and likely was raised as a girl until puberty. At puberty Khelif would have started male puberty and also had a lack of female puberty - so deeper voice, facial hair, no breasts, no period.

Most people with Khelifs DSD receive medical care at that point and learn about their DSD.

Personally, I would have no problem to continue using she/her pronouns for someone who has always been raised as a girl until puberty - if they didn’t make a living using their body to beat women.

By the time of the Olympics Khelif definitely knew they were male, had testes, and had gone through a male puberty. I can almost accept that it would be difficult to let that training and passion go, once you’ve reached that pinnacle of a career - but that’s why the Administrative bodies of the sport should support the female competitors.

And I’ve no problem calling Khelif male because 1. They’re male. 2. They’re using male advantages to take medals and sex segregated places away from women. 3. He uses his male body to batter women, for sport. When he knows he’s a man.