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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
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35
AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 11/02/2025 19:19

So, just to recap:
I, Petra, get brought into A&E for treatment of a gynae nature and request a female doctor. I don’t have to explain why, but it’s not beyond the bounds to think that this is to prevent me from distress I would experience being treated by a male doctor.

luckily there is both a female doctor and a male dr (Upton) on shift. Dr Upton knows that, whatever his own beliefs, some people (correctly) read him as male.

i have not yet seen any Dr. Other than as a result of my illness/injury, I am not distressed.

if the female dr on shift draws back the curtain, i remain undistressed.

if Dr Upton draws back the curtain and I clock him as male (yes, completely laughable that I wouldn’t - even the fragrant Dr admits it’s a possibility) I will be distressed; both by the underlying past trauma AND by having my reasonable request today ignored. I might be a complete Peggie and be able to stand up for myself in the moment and tell Dr U to sling his hook; and, if he is to be believed, he would meekly do so.

but the point is, I would have tried to avoid distress, the NHS ‘says’ it’s my right to avoid the distress. But, despite knowing this, Dr U has decided his right to distress me matters more. The only ‘solution’ he presents - for him to leave on request - does not avoid my - the patient’s - distress; by the time i object, it’s too late.

much like the, “if there’s any bad behaviour by blokes, you can always complain…. “ except the bad behaviour’s happened by then…

Delphismum · 11/02/2025 19:21

If we as women lose this case and the Supreme Court case, do you think we could ask the US and other rational countries to give us asylum? Imagine women leaving the UK as it is no longer a safe place.

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2025 19:23

He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place

The point is not that it would fall on the patient to realise. Surely the key point here is that DrU acknowledged the stepping aside. Why do so? The only reason - and clearly DrU is agreeing here - is that he is biological male.

Surely this makes a mockery of his insistence that he is a woman and upends his TWAW right to be in that female CR?

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/02/2025 19:23

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 19:09

Only the gushing comments are left now. Josie Mengele and Treat Yourself to a Shave have gone

23 comments to 58 supporters though! That's a lot of deletions.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 11/02/2025 19:23

Delphismum · 11/02/2025 19:21

If we as women lose this case and the Supreme Court case, do you think we could ask the US and other rational countries to give us asylum? Imagine women leaving the UK as it is no longer a safe place.

I believe the current US administration have cancelled all asylum claims at the moment. Though I suppose they might make an exception for a white person.

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 19:24

Delphismum · 11/02/2025 19:21

If we as women lose this case and the Supreme Court case, do you think we could ask the US and other rational countries to give us asylum? Imagine women leaving the UK as it is no longer a safe place.

No, I don't think it's something that would be cause for other countries to grant asylum to us.

If this doesn't go the way we want, we will wait and try again, and again.

Watchingfromadistance · 11/02/2025 19:28

I'm a couple of days and many threads behind, so apologies if this has already been asked.
If questions around whether DrU has a GRC is not to be included in the case, and the GMC have registered them as female, is one possibility they have obtained a GRC through some means other than meeting the expected requirements?
Just trying to make sense of various strands.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 19:29

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2025 19:23

He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place

The point is not that it would fall on the patient to realise. Surely the key point here is that DrU acknowledged the stepping aside. Why do so? The only reason - and clearly DrU is agreeing here - is that he is biological male.

Surely this makes a mockery of his insistence that he is a woman and upends his TWAW right to be in that female CR?

Edited

He might argue that some patients would have a problem with a 'trans' doctor and so he would step aside, and get around actually admitting he is male. He has basically rebranded male as 'trans' so he can avoid saying he is male at all.

SauvignonBlanche · 11/02/2025 19:29

Delphismum · 11/02/2025 19:21

If we as women lose this case and the Supreme Court case, do you think we could ask the US and other rational countries to give us asylum? Imagine women leaving the UK as it is no longer a safe place.

I doubt anyone sane will be going to the US in the next 4 years.

I may agree with Trump on one issue but disagree with him on about 4000000 others.

AAT65 · 11/02/2025 19:29

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 19:01

Thought the BBC news report tonight wasn’t bad, except for describing Naomi as a solicitor

That may have changed. The version on the BBC Scotland news page refers to Naomi as SP's lawyer not solicitor.

mauvish · 11/02/2025 19:29

Dr Mengele and Treat Yourself are no more, but Dr Theodore Purves-Onwimmin has slipped through the net.

Remind me again of Beth's "deadname"? LOL!

Delphismum · 11/02/2025 19:30

The Supreme Court is the end though. I actually am beginning to feel unsafe as a woman in this country. Moving is beginning to be an option if this madness continues and our government remains at best uninterested in our rights.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 11/02/2025 19:30

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/02/2025 19:23

23 comments to 58 supporters though! That's a lot of deletions.

Can donors who are deleted get their donations back?

advarksnoutstronaut · 11/02/2025 19:30

You don't have to be a person of authority to satisfy the public interest test - anyone can do it.

The strongest cast would be to use the comments regarding non-disclosure of sex to female patients; as well as all of patients already treated by DU who have an interest in this case - particularly if they were unaware.

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 19:34

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2025 19:23

He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place

The point is not that it would fall on the patient to realise. Surely the key point here is that DrU acknowledged the stepping aside. Why do so? The only reason - and clearly DrU is agreeing here - is that he is biological male.

Surely this makes a mockery of his insistence that he is a woman and upends his TWAW right to be in that female CR?

Edited

No, he wouldn't have it that it would have anything to do with him being male.

What he said was that any patient can refuse care from any doctor at any time. Therefore the woman who a. Well enough to notice and b. Has the energy to complain can say no.

He said that if a woman doesn't say no when he shows up after asking for a female doc is, by her lack of refusal, accepting him as female. Not in pain/scared shitless/off her face on morphine/has been waiting 8 hours and can't wait any longer.

The woman who refuses is transphobic. They have procedures for dealing with racist patients and obviously this is the same as that. She's a bigot.

RogueFemale · 11/02/2025 19:35

@Appalonia I wish NC would ask him these questions:
Do you have a p or a v?
Do you have periods?

I would just like NC to ask him, do you have a uterus and/or ovaries, because that is the one thing (I think) that no 'TW' can have even if they have the surgery (which most of them don't).

If she asked about penis or vagina, he'd argue the toss, if there had been surgery to remove penis/create a fake vagina.

Same with periods. What are periods? He'd say, if you're asking whether I experience bleeding yes of course I do, I have blood in my body, etc ad nauseum.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 19:36

@CheekySnake yes, this is exactly it. You said it much better than I could.

PlumbertimeInFife · 11/02/2025 19:36

Funny how male and female (sex) is some offensive dogwhistle, but "cis" and "trans" - which imply the same thing - somehow isn't.

myplace · 11/02/2025 19:38

He has agreed that he had no treatment of any kind.

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 19:39

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 19:36

@CheekySnake yes, this is exactly it. You said it much better than I could.

I've got a chronic gynecological illness, I've had plenty of emergency runs to a&e, and male doctors who've stuck their fingers up there outnumber the men I've had consensual sex with.

This is a big deal for me. The idea that he could touch a woman who has said no men touching her, and then justify it by saying she didn't tell him not to makes me feel sick.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 11/02/2025 19:40

PlumbertimeInFife · 11/02/2025 19:36

Funny how male and female (sex) is some offensive dogwhistle, but "cis" and "trans" - which imply the same thing - somehow isn't.

Funny how biological sex is a nebulous dogwhistle until he's interpreting Pete's blood test results, and then suddenly it matters whether it's the same as his gender identity... 🤷‍♂️

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2025 19:40

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 19:34

No, he wouldn't have it that it would have anything to do with him being male.

What he said was that any patient can refuse care from any doctor at any time. Therefore the woman who a. Well enough to notice and b. Has the energy to complain can say no.

He said that if a woman doesn't say no when he shows up after asking for a female doc is, by her lack of refusal, accepting him as female. Not in pain/scared shitless/off her face on morphine/has been waiting 8 hours and can't wait any longer.

The woman who refuses is transphobic. They have procedures for dealing with racist patients and obviously this is the same as that. She's a bigot.

But Well enough to notice what? What are they noticing?

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 19:40

He is deliberately and intentionally misrepresenting his sex if a female patient specifically asks for a female nurse. It is indisputable that if he attends he is committing an offence.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 19:40

RogueFemale · 11/02/2025 19:35

@Appalonia I wish NC would ask him these questions:
Do you have a p or a v?
Do you have periods?

I would just like NC to ask him, do you have a uterus and/or ovaries, because that is the one thing (I think) that no 'TW' can have even if they have the surgery (which most of them don't).

If she asked about penis or vagina, he'd argue the toss, if there had been surgery to remove penis/create a fake vagina.

Same with periods. What are periods? He'd say, if you're asking whether I experience bleeding yes of course I do, I have blood in my body, etc ad nauseum.

Not sure even this would help. It might get responses of 'some 'cis' women don't have a uterus and ovaries', 'men (ie 'trans men') can have a uterus and ovaries', 'I'm not telling you if I have a uterus and ovaries, that's my private business', misrepresented examples of some very rare DSDs, etc etc.

Boiledbeetle · 11/02/2025 19:40

ifIwerenotanandroid · 11/02/2025 19:30

Can donors who are deleted get their donations back?

I know I shouldn't laugh but...

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"Bless you, Dr, it takes real balls to be your true self and stand up for your rights x"

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