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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
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35
EauCaledonia · 11/02/2025 18:47

ChoccyJules · 11/02/2025 16:45

So because people are actually interested it becomes hidden behind closed-doors. Nice.

Where were you during the first and second Maya Forstater hearings? Jo Phoenix?

Witchlite · 11/02/2025 18:49

JasmineAllen · 11/02/2025 18:38

Apologies if the link is a bit odd. I clearly don't know what I'm doing.
It's a reasonably balanced write up as well which is nice ftom thd BBC.

But will it remain like that when the editors go home…

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/02/2025 18:54

Go Ginger!
(Image will hopefully appear...)

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13
CerealPosterHere · 11/02/2025 18:54

Taken me two hours to catch up.
csnt believe we’re barred
but yay, 🐶 puppies

ifIwerenotanandroid · 11/02/2025 18:55

Someone on the previous thread asked about getting a GRC multiple times. I've only just caught up with everything, so here's my answer (as a non-expert):

  1. From what a detransitioner said (?on twitter/X), you can't just revoke a GRC. She'd gone FtM & now she'll have to get a second GRC to go back to being F.
  2. I once read (?in Hansard) a discussion or debate about getting a GRC & it said that they would allow someone to attempt transition twice, on the grounds that the first time they tried they might not have the support they needed & the transition might fail. When they were older & more established, they might try again & succeed. This seemed quite compassionate, to me.
eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 18:55

@nauticant thanks for the sterling work. Let’s adapt with the live feed down, why not ping off an email to the ET tonight to determine whether a live audio feed can be linked to Mumsnet, to placate all concerned, or embed a single live feed in a thread allowing Mumsnetters if that is a word to view proceedings, not that viewing the bloke giving evidence is very exciting? I don’t want to steal your thunder, I will do it if you like and agree wording with you. That way there would be no strain on the resources of the ET and would save costs, part of the over-riding objective. I think we may be able to make an application to do so.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 18:56

CerealPosterHere · 11/02/2025 18:54

Taken me two hours to catch up.
csnt believe we’re barred
but yay, 🐶 puppies

We aren’t barred, due to the resounding public response and interest the live feed just cannot cope with the numbers

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 18:57

I simply meant that gender identity is already covered as a separate PC from Sex in the sense that gender reassignment has a broader application than than reassignment surgery, not that non-binary is specifically covered by the EquA as a result of the outcome of that case. If the TRAs are claiming it is they are patently wrong.

Yes, they are, sorry for any crossed wires!

MyFlightWasAwfulThanksForAsking · 11/02/2025 18:58

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 18:55

@nauticant thanks for the sterling work. Let’s adapt with the live feed down, why not ping off an email to the ET tonight to determine whether a live audio feed can be linked to Mumsnet, to placate all concerned, or embed a single live feed in a thread allowing Mumsnetters if that is a word to view proceedings, not that viewing the bloke giving evidence is very exciting? I don’t want to steal your thunder, I will do it if you like and agree wording with you. That way there would be no strain on the resources of the ET and would save costs, part of the over-riding objective. I think we may be able to make an application to do so.

They will not do this, don't waste your time.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 18:59

@nauticant just found this in my emails - the public interest will be served by Mumsnet making an application and someone of authority should do it - Dear Sir/Madam,
Mrs S Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton
Case number: 4104864/2024
INFORMATION ON REMOTE ACCESS
An employment tribunal case of Sandie Peggie vs. Fife Health Board and another is currently on-going at Dundee Tribunal Hearing Centre before Employment Judge Kemp and members. An observation room is available in the Tribunal building with limited capacity.
Remote access to the Final Hearing had earlier been provided, but has caused substantial technical difficulties and is now capable of only being made available for accredited media, and to Tribunal Tweets who have been granted permission to send live text based communications. Applications for access can be made by email to[email protected] and will be considered if presented alongside valid journalist ID.
The link will be distributed tomorrow morning (12 February). The previous open-access link will no longer operate until further notice.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 19:01

Thought the BBC news report tonight wasn’t bad, except for describing Naomi as a solicitor

DrBlackbird · 11/02/2025 19:03

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 17:51

The begging bowl for 'treats' for Upton is now up to about 700. He should get his moustache zapped.

FFS. This is definitely as a counter to the support for SP dad fund raiser. But beautifully illustrates the difference between those supporting DrU ie wealthy, privileged, bekind, insulated from every day stresses and low wages raising money for treats for an equally wealthy dr. Whereas, SPs money was being raised for a charitable cause in memory of a regular person loved by his family.

Ineedashero · 11/02/2025 19:03

Could the FWS verdict come before SPs case is concluded? Could it have an impact?

myplace · 11/02/2025 19:05

The comments have been removed, only the usernames remain.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 19:05

MyFlightWasAwfulThanksForAsking · 11/02/2025 18:58

They will not do this, don't waste your time.

I disagree - why do you state this given the massive public interest and popularity of the site? Are you aware of the principle of open justice?

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 19:09

In the alternative can TT be given a thread if their own on Mumsnet and stream directly to the thread? All users would need it two windows open, one to read, one to comment so as not to interrupt the stream?

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 19:09

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/02/2025 18:54

Go Ginger!
(Image will hopefully appear...)

Only the gushing comments are left now. Josie Mengele and Treat Yourself to a Shave have gone

Largofesse · 11/02/2025 19:10

So my developing theory is that when they employed BU, HR dept were excited to tick a diversity box. We know that there is already a fairly established ‘chilling’ effect within the NHS and that sense of excitement and inability to discuss matters arising meant the managers never undertook any impact assessment on facilities.

Then, of course, when BU asked if it was OK to use female CR they were already on a hiding to nothing and fell back on ‘speak’ rather than procedure — and this approach would have been approved of heartily by the TRAs within the NHS who had worked to establish the chilling effect.

It then became clear that BU was gathering material for general harassment of senior management around the idea that transphobia is rife and the inevitable resulting demand that they need to do a cleansing in order for him to feel ‘safe’. They would immediately understand the risk he presented to them and so when the first investigation undermined him they shat their pants. This is in tandem with the true believers, of course, who didn’t shit anything because they are very happy with the idea, and think it completely justified to cleanse potential disbelievers from the general pool. There are so many ways to achieve that but working under supervision would have been meant to be the final mail in the coffin and the expectation would have been that SP would have quit soon after.

They did not expect SP to bring this case and tried to settle in advance and have been tripped by the fact that numbers game ain’t working for SP.

There is no doubt in my mind that BU exaggerated and made up claims because he was enjoying victimising SP. He is continuing to get a kick out of that.

NC clocked him from the off and her pursuit of documentation to prove his lying and enjoyment is exactly the sort of legal process BU thought he could talk over and around but depending on what is further revealed I think she has already sufficiently demonstrated that he,
at the very best, massaged the examples and narrative to suit the level of necessary complaint.

As soon as they realised SP would not settle this left the legal team
in an impossible situation. They can’t ask to see documents that might show their client is lying because they can only continue to claim he is not lying if they haven’t seen evidence to the contrary.

This would explain why JR — who will have seen the same clues as NC has — has not insisted on BU disclosing all his comms prior and instead hoping against hope that she can use her barrister nous to cut NC off at the pass.

We can’t know what the panel will decide but I think the claim from NHS Fife and BU that SPs litigation is vexatious is burnt to ashes without any further documentation needed — a bonus if that further email trail documents lies.

Ineedashero · 11/02/2025 19:13

I don't have a press pass but I do have a journalism qualification so might try that angle for getting access. Will report back. Although got teams calls all day tomorrow so might not be able to report much if I do get access!

anyolddinosaur · 11/02/2025 19:13

The reports of Pete's demise may be premature - if FIFE decide on a case by case basis he may reappear as an example.

Wonder why only the two doctors were mentioned when FIFE wanted to keep things secret.

Notaflippinclue · 11/02/2025 19:13

He's got balls I'll give him that

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 11/02/2025 19:14

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:05

Look at some of the recent "supporters" who've pledged "love and treats" for DrU. Specifically, look at some of the names. Not quite who/what you might think!

I'm sure there's nothing dodgy at all about Dr Josie Mengele and Dr Purves-Onwimmin! 😂😂😂

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/02/2025 19:17

Did SP crowdfund for legal fees? I don't remember seeing anything so I'm wondering if, perhaps, a rich and famous author living in Scotland might be footing the bill - which would explain her refusal to settle, I guess.

SauvignonBlanche · 11/02/2025 19:18

Emails can be submitted during a case if anyone is talking shite.
I was a witness in one and was able to sneak out and make a call to obtain one that showed someone giving evidence was wrong.
Quick WhatsApp to the solicitors and it’s in counsels’ hand in seconds.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 19:19

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 18:12

Look at the name...

"Dr Josie Mengele
11th February 2025
It’s so unfair the way you have been treated! Why shouldn’t you go wherever you want to. Your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room. God bless you. Treat yourself to a new Blahaj my lovely!! Xx"

Yeesh. Missed that. Mengele eh 😬

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