NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

It’s lucky there is only JR. How difficult would it be for NC to have 2 barristers ? Maybe they did miss a trick

I have just read the excellent FWS article.

The following question springs to mind, as I am engaging in the absurd.

"Dr Upton, as a biological female do you believe that biological males have no place in the womens changing room in light of your lived experience as a female?"

Morning all. I will copy and paste all updates from TT once they start.

Thank you

I think, in these circumstances, it would be appropriate for you to reframe your pronunciation to scone, to rhyme with con.

Thanks, much appreciated. I find Twitter threads too hard to follow these days.

The trouble is if Upton honestly believes that Upton is biologically female and is a doctor they really shouldn't be practicing as it's actively dangerous in numerous situations. How can we trust in judgements made by Upton.

If Upton is actively lying under oath and is a doctor Upton really shouldn't be practicing as it's actively undermining public trust in the NHS and could lead to vulnerable women being avoidant of seeking medical care when they need it, because they are afraid of having to deal with an individual like this because they are seeing the NHS support this as policy.

There is no upside here for Upton on a personal level on the basis of Upton's own words.

Both possible explanations raise huge questions marks. Neither is good.

Agreed! In honour of your Scottish sisters; we need all the support we can get right now!

Sorry I'm only on page 5 of this thread but I wanted to make an observation.

A pp mentioned a few days ago that BU gave NC a long hard stare when leaving the room for a break (pausing at her desk to do it). Well I didn't see that bit and didn't really believe it, thought it was poster misinterpreting. But I saw what would have been a very similar mean stare from him as he left at a break when I was watching yesterday. Very playground if I am right.

Put that together with NC having to request of the J that two friends of BU, who had positioned themselves directly behind NC, be moved to another area because they could view her screen.

These are clear intimidation tactics.None of these incidents were picked up by media, just us wims. This, on top of the obvious, is what we are missing by being excluded. Petty? Maybe but all part of the story.

Mumbles something about Bunbury…

I have some hours this morning which I should spend catching up on my admin backlog and preparing for work later today. But, TT will start tweeting soon and I'm weak-willed…

Not a Scottish lawyer but I've taken a look at the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act. As well as providing for higher sentences if an offence is aggravated by prejudice, this Act gives us two specific crimes - racially aggravated harassment (which clearly does not apply here) and stirring up hatred. SP could only be committed of the latter offence if it could be proven that her actions were intended to stir up hatred against transwomen. She can, however, stir up hatred against DU all she likes - that is not an offence.

People can report things that happened before the Act became law all they like, but such reports will go nowhere. The rule in the UK is that Acts do not apply retrospectively unless they clearly state otherwise, and there is nothing in this Act that states it applies retrospectively. If you do something that is lawful at the time you did it, it is highly unlikely that a future Act of Parliament will make you a criminal. The only exception that immediately springs to mind is the War Crimes Act 1991 allowing people resident in the UK to be prosecuted for war crimes carried out in Germany or the occupied territories during WWII.

By the way, I hope the tribunal has noted that DU appears to have admitted he knew that being in the changing room at the same time as SP caused distress but that he carried on anyway. That is the very definition of harassment.

While it's probably not anything to do with Upton at all, I don't think its been set up to poke fun at him either. The domain was registered all the way back in 2018, and the site in something like its current form has been in existence since Dec 2021

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220522012554/www.tgscience.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20220522012554/www.tgscience.org/

I'll ask for my cut and paste to be deleted, in that case

Though I do wonder what his mum and dad are thinking about this. It must be intensely surreal to be sitting there listening to your son adamant that he's not male but biologically female, and that he has a right to women's spaces, and so forth. And then seeing all this splashed across newspapers up and down the land.

The author of the site has listed a series of names, one for each letter of the alphabet. The email address references a medical test. I believe it to be him. A heck of a co-coincidence.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · Today 09:14

Not sure this has already been posted but I thought it worth sharing if not. Given the content of Upton's testimony yesterday & the fact he wouldn't automatically exclude himself from providing care to a woman or girl who specifically asked for a female doctor, this is a good letter that covers the implications of that position:

Thanks, that was a good find! It's an excellent letter, packed with all the pertinent points, yet succinct. I'd be interested to see their reply. Defensive waffle, denials and psychobabble would be my guess.

There's also the fact that when you say you want same sex care, you withdraw consent for opposite sex care at that point. That's it. Done. You've said no.

You are not then required to assess any doctor that comes to examine you on a case by case basis and withdraw consent again.

I also wish NC had asked him about chaperones. Does Upton need a chaperone to examine a female patient? I've had female docs and nurses examine me without. The male docs without fail have a female nurse in the room and triple check I'm ok with it before they do anything.

Did you two just assume my country of origin? Hate Crime! Suspend them! You've ruined ( checks calender) valentines day for me.

Would someone who had nothing to hide and was telling the truth feel the need to use such tactics? I think not.

It is becoming more and more obvious that this is about intimidation and control, he just can't help himself.

We should all be WFTCHTJ. Instead it’s “invalid PIN”. They need to be allowing the public remote access.

Sorry but I don't understand. What does this site have to do with him? It's about newts and possums, and unicorns for some reason.

What links this to Dr Upton?

People lie in civil cases all the time. Perjury charges for doing so are vanishingly rare.

The judge has to allow this to stand. If he does not, that would be viewed as showing bias and would give DU and Fife an easy appeal if SP wins.

Can someone tell me why Vic Valentine of the Scottish Trans Network is being called as a witness? Are they giving a general overview about trans people?