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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

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35
Jerabilis · 12/02/2025 09:17

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 00:38

In order to be a hate crime it must not only be directed against person with a protected characteristic, and because of that characteristic, but it also must be crime in its own right. What possible crime did they imagine had been committed?

The ultimate crime for a woman - not doing what a man wanted?

ThePartingOfTheWays · 12/02/2025 09:17

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Fucking hell.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 12/02/2025 09:19

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I was about to ask the same question.

bumbledenbarsk · 12/02/2025 09:19

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There's so much that could be said about this, as well as the suspicion of a personality disorder such as sociopath or psychopath.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 09:20

Waitwhat23 · 12/02/2025 09:14

Excellent piece about activists in the public sector in the Herald today -

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-herald-1130/20250212/282007563105029

It's not on the Herald website yet, hence the Pressreader link but it's Calum Steele, former General Secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, talking about activists within public sector bodies.

Edited

From a different angle, Sarah Haider has an unlocked post: On effective activism and intellectual honesty

There is a fundamental disconnect between the functions of two different classes of “discourse participants” — those who use language to think and discover truth and those who use it as a means to power.

It took me some time to accept the dichotomy myself, and especially, the realities of what it might mean for my own abilities to be a highly successful activist.

The activist game, to sum in one sentence, is about results. The goal of a “good” activist is to achieve the ends as quickly as possible — as ethically as this might allow. Her morality is rooted in the goodness of the ends she works towards, indisputably noble means to attain them are not required.

The thinker game is about truth. The goal is to uncover reality as it is - to achieve a true map of the real world (and hopefully, to be the first to do it). Reflecting reality accurately requires honesty — with oneself and with others — and a strict adherence to principled conduct. Although all fields have some degree of competition, knowledge-building is inherently not a zero-sum game. Truth builds upon itself.

The activist, meanwhile, lives in a world of scarcity — limited time, limited funds, limited public attention. To her, not winning is the same as losing: every minute in which her goals are not achieved is a minute in which a harm has been achieved. There is a cost to delay.
Meanwhile, from the thinker’s perspective, the only activism that doesn't look like dishonorable demagoguery is, in practice, ineffective activism.

newsletter.sarahhaider.com/p/on-effective-activism-and-intellectual?utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true

Jacopo · 12/02/2025 09:21

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fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 09:21

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BezMills · 12/02/2025 09:22

Yeah the nebulous and difficult to measure Male or Female Sex. He's Male by every single measure, and he knows it. He's using sophistry and an appeal to his self-appointed authority ( as a newly qualified doctor of very little experience ) to bamboozle the lawyers in court.

Someone wants to ask him. If you're so clever, why did you go from Madras (one of the best schools in Fife - hush at the back there!) to Dundee, when Edinburgh School of Medicine is the same distance away and, well, it's just better.

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/02/2025 09:22

As was mentioned yesterday, it’s probably best not to comment or speculate about DrU’s close relatives. It may be out of concern, eg for DrU’s wife, but we don’t know for sure that the author of the PhD is related to DrU and it’s unfair for her to be dragged into this.

Iwishihadariver · 12/02/2025 09:23

Justme56 · 12/02/2025 08:00

https://forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/

The Scots Women have found Pete!! 😆

That is a brilliant article! 👏 FWS

ThatsNotMyTeen · 12/02/2025 09:25

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/02/2025 09:22

As was mentioned yesterday, it’s probably best not to comment or speculate about DrU’s close relatives. It may be out of concern, eg for DrU’s wife, but we don’t know for sure that the author of the PhD is related to DrU and it’s unfair for her to be dragged into this.

Agreed. Also, it may increase the likelihood of other similar tribunals being heard in private, there goes our open justice

RocketPanda · 12/02/2025 09:25

Morning. I'm armed with scones ( pronounced to rhyme with cones 😉) and a mug of coffee.

CesarSoubreyon · 12/02/2025 09:26

My feeling is that this case is giving the NHS a taste of what's to come if they continue down this path.

Essentially, every patient treated by a trans person will have the onus on them to refuse treatment even if they have already unequivocally stated that they want a FEMALE doctor.

It opens up a whole world of what ifs...

What if the doctor is wearing a mask and It isn't immediately obvious the doctor is male?

What if the patient is afraid to say no?

What if the patient is unconscious and can't protest?

What if the patient doesn't realise the doctor is male until treatment has already begun?

What if the patient thinks that the doctor might be a masculine looking woman rather than a man?

What if the patient is drunk, affected by drugs or otherwise cognitively unable to function properly?

Why don't they see what absolute lunacy this is????

And that doesn't even take into account all the other very real risks of men being allowed to call themselves women and being supported by the NHS in doing so.

I feel like this case will be looked back on as the turning point. Sandie Peggie is an extraordinary brave woman and she is doing this for girls and women everywhere.

FlowchartRequired · 12/02/2025 09:28

I clicked on the link from a couple of pages back (p23 post by Alison at 08:40)

The update is bizarre.

'In an effort to protect my privacy, I have created a fake name for myself, Alfred Bilkinson. In formal letters, please address me as Dr. Sir Alfred Bilkinson Carl Doormat Ellsbury Fredmond Garfield Hubert Ivan Jackward Kevin Larry Mark Nathaniel Oval Perry Quiltson Richard Sylvester Theodore Upton Vedinni Wallace Xylophone Yerbert Zermenslen III, Esquire. My e-mail address is [email protected]. This address is in no way similar to my real name. Submit questions to me through e-mail, and I will answer them on this website.'

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13
OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 09:28

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Bloody hell

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 09:28

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Timetodownsize · 12/02/2025 09:28

Is the Crowdfunder for Sandie legit ? I thought she hadn't sought funds ?

QueenProtea · 12/02/2025 09:29

The reporting of the tribunal on these threads and reading the various links provided have made it very clear why Upton wanted the case to be held in private!

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 09:30

Timetodownsize · 12/02/2025 09:28

Is the Crowdfunder for Sandie legit ? I thought she hadn't sought funds ?

No idea.

I'm taking a 'trust but validate' approach to some items.

BunfightBetty · 12/02/2025 09:32

OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 08:33

He sincerely believes it to be true, I suppose.

In which case he needs his fitness to practice to be reviewed.

But we all know he doesn’t really believe it to be true and this can be demonstrated by some of his testimony, eg when he concedes he would have to desist from examining a woman if she specifically asked. Which is why it needs to be challenged as the lie under oath that it is.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 12/02/2025 09:33

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 07:01

In my mind Pete was tall and broad, bald with tattoos - Brian’s more, well, rotund? No matter - he”s in!

'Stocky' is what I'd go with. He's not round enough for rotund. Shorter than you might think, though, so not perhaps the Platonic ideal of a Pete.

Lovely chap, though, and he'd play the part with gusto. So I'm in favour.

AlbertCamusflage · 12/02/2025 09:33

FlowchartRequired · 12/02/2025 09:28

I clicked on the link from a couple of pages back (p23 post by Alison at 08:40)

The update is bizarre.

'In an effort to protect my privacy, I have created a fake name for myself, Alfred Bilkinson. In formal letters, please address me as Dr. Sir Alfred Bilkinson Carl Doormat Ellsbury Fredmond Garfield Hubert Ivan Jackward Kevin Larry Mark Nathaniel Oval Perry Quiltson Richard Sylvester Theodore Upton Vedinni Wallace Xylophone Yerbert Zermenslen III, Esquire. My e-mail address is [email protected]. This address is in no way similar to my real name. Submit questions to me through e-mail, and I will answer them on this website.'

It is pretty clearly a spoof site set up to poke fun at Upton. If that is correct then the person posting the link to it is just adding to the slew of misinformation that is growing around this case. Also adding to that slew is the speculation about Upton's mother, which is horribly intrusive.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 09:34

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1889602296952000545?s=19

"We hope to be live tweeting day 8 of nurse Sandie Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton from 9.30am today or soon after.

SP’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation"

Chariothorses · 12/02/2025 09:34

Dear lovely fellow mumsnetters,
Sorry to repeat what I wrote previously.
Please do not speculate on the family members of this abusive, controlling man. None of them have commented publicly and you have no idea what is happening behind closed doors.The efforts to investigate and publish information about people who are not involved in this case is intrusive and inappropriate.

ImASexFascistApparently · 12/02/2025 09:34

FlowchartRequired · 12/02/2025 09:28

I clicked on the link from a couple of pages back (p23 post by Alison at 08:40)

The update is bizarre.

'In an effort to protect my privacy, I have created a fake name for myself, Alfred Bilkinson. In formal letters, please address me as Dr. Sir Alfred Bilkinson Carl Doormat Ellsbury Fredmond Garfield Hubert Ivan Jackward Kevin Larry Mark Nathaniel Oval Perry Quiltson Richard Sylvester Theodore Upton Vedinni Wallace Xylophone Yerbert Zermenslen III, Esquire. My e-mail address is [email protected]. This address is in no way similar to my real name. Submit questions to me through e-mail, and I will answer them on this website.'

EDIT I have now seen that this may have been created as a spoof so ignore my comment below. Apologies!

Apart from the nonsense ones like Xylophone, all male names too.

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