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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
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35
eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 08:58

ClosdesMouches · 12/02/2025 08:57

I have yet to catch up yesterday's threads. I am only up to lunch time so far, have tried to skim read since then.

Can someone please tell me what time it's supposed to start this morning? I have 10.30 in my head from somewhere. And it's TT to follow live as no public access?

0930

SinnerBoy · 12/02/2025 08:59

I bet the TRA-La-Las would like to make a film about poor, brave Beth. Starring Florence Pugh as Upton and Gwendoline Christie as Sandie Peggie.

Datun · 12/02/2025 08:59

Upton claims he automatically thought he could use the female changing room because he had done so at his previous place of work.

I wonder if any of that has been verified. And whether there were any complaints.

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 08:59

If you are pushed for time, catch up with x.com/boswelltoday

He summarises and is guided by a lawyer to produce the synopsis.

myplace · 12/02/2025 08:59

I’ve just twigged the BU abbreviation.

AIBU? Yes you bloody well are!

And the very Trumpesque declaration-
Everyone knows I’m a woman! I’m a womanly, big girl pant wearing woman, everyone says it! The womanliest woman in the biggest girliest pants- it’s true! Everyone knows!

CriticalCondition · 12/02/2025 09:00

This is getting very interesting as we move onto who knew what and when.

The significance of metadata attached to digitally created documents will not be lost on his father. Managing archives of data for research purposes is literally his day job. He may regret sitting in such a visible position in the support posse. His son cannot see his face but NC can.

PoshCoffee · 12/02/2025 09:01

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ClosdesMouches · 12/02/2025 09:02

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 08:58

0930

Thank you, in that case I'd better get some work done quickly!

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 09:03

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Mum's thesis.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 09:03

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UrsulasHerbBag · 12/02/2025 09:03

Hello team Peggie. I have been reading along all these threads and considering we have been trending here for almost a week I have found it really interesting that our usual friends haven’t appeared on any of these threads. No “urgh mumsnet, bigots” or anyone wanting to drop in to argue for Dr U. They are out in force on other threads on FWR but not here.

BabaYagasHouse · 12/02/2025 09:05

@Largofesse

As a misogynist it must have been so galling for him to train with better female doctors given his intrinsic, though masked, belief that women shouldn’t be doctors (wholly my speculation). I suspect some excellent fellow student, female, consistently trounced him and easily won the admiration of friends and superiors and that is where his to be a women became his goal.

This is actually a very interesting point, when you consider that DU gave an example, at one point, of a patient that might believe a woman shouldn't be a doctor.
This would be a telling example of psychological projection.

(Ps while I'm here, delurking, many thanks to nauticant and everyone providing this commentary to follow)

Projectme · 12/02/2025 09:06

thistlewhistlewheest · 12/02/2025 08:58

The crowdfunded for Sandie is already double the one for DU!!! Grin

I didn't know there was one! I've just found it and donated.

PoshCoffee · 12/02/2025 09:06

Thank you @eulittleb831 and @AlisonDonut

Also, WTAF?????

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 09:07

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Jimmyneutronsforehead · 12/02/2025 09:08

Morning lovelies.

I tried to get on TT but twitter confuses the absolute daylight out of me. Maybe I'm a luddite.

Anyway I'm hoping BU is as impressively cross examined today even though we can't necessarily see it today.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 09:10

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SirChenjins · 12/02/2025 09:10

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eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 09:12

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 12/02/2025 09:08

Morning lovelies.

I tried to get on TT but twitter confuses the absolute daylight out of me. Maybe I'm a luddite.

Anyway I'm hoping BU is as impressively cross examined today even though we can't necessarily see it today.

Log in to Twitter/x
Search TribunalTweets

You will be able to determine the latest thread, posts appear under it, you can then click on the posts to see extended posts or comments from observers.

Agree, it is not always clear

OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 09:13

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Current UKBHC status is 'removed', whatever that means (presumably it could just be that she is no longer working in a job which requires registration?)

oldwomanwhoruns · 12/02/2025 09:13

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DU said from the witness box that he was 6'. But this may be incorrect as we are working out that his truth seems to be flexible

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 12/02/2025 09:14

Not sure this has already been posted but I thought it worth sharing if not. Given the content of Upton's testimony yesterday & the fact he wouldn't automatically exclude himself from providing care to a woman or girl who specifically asked for a female doctor, this is a good letter that covers the implications of that position:

https://x.com/allanpetrie91/status/1889591533013242177?s=46

"In response to NHS Taysides Intimate Personal Care and Chaperoning Policy (Adult and Child). i have sent this letter.

Subject: Grave Concerns Regarding Policy and Legal Compliance (Intimate Personal Care and Chaperoning Policy (Adult and Child)

Dear Ms Connor

I am writing to express my deep concern regarding the information contained within NHS Tayside Intimate Personal Care and Chaperoning Policy (Adult and Child).
This policy appears to be an ill-thought out, politically motivated initiative that lacks respect and dignity for some of the most vulnerable members of our society. It is shocking and unacceptable that such a policy would be proposed, given the clear breaches of legal protections that it entails.
Breach of Legal Protections
The policy in question purports to align with existing legal frameworks, but a careful examination reveals that it in fact contradicts and undermines fundamental legal rights. Specifically, it appears to breach the following:

1.The Equality Act 2010:
This legislation provides distinct protections based on Sex and Gender Reassignment as separate protected characteristics. Policies that fail to differentiate between the two may result in unlawful discrimination against individuals whose rights are specifically protected under this law.

2.The Human Rights Act 1998:

This Act guarantees the right to privacy, dignity, and non-discrimination. The implementation of policies that disregard biological sex in favour of gender identity alone could infringe on the rights of women, particularly in healthcare settings where sex-based protections are vital.

3.The NHS Constitution:

The guiding principles of the National Health Service require patient centred care that respects the specific needs of individuals. A failure to recognise and accommodate the unique medical and biological needs of individuals based on sex undermines these commitments.

4.Offences Against the Person Act 1861
It is essential to remember that medical professionals, like all individuals, are bound by the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. While they are legally permitted to carry out procedures that would otherwise constitute assault, such as physical examinations, injections, and surgeries, this is only lawful with the informed consent of the patient.
Without such consent, any physical intervention, regardless of intent, constitutes assault under the law. This includes a woman’s explicit refusal to be examined by a biological male doctor, requesting a same sex doctor is a valid and lawful exercise of bodily autonomy. Any attempt to proceed without consent, or to pressure a patient into accepting an unwanted examiner, is a breach of legal and ethical standards and may constitute criminal assault under this Act.

Sex v Gender: A Crucial Distinction.

It is particularly alarming that a health service policy does not differentiate between Sex and Gender, given that both are distinct and have different legal and medical implications.

Sex is a biological classification (male or female) based on reproductive anatomy and genetics. It is immutable and has direct implications for medical care, such as differences in disease risk, drug metabolism, and specific healthcare needs.
Gender is a social and psychological identity that may or may not align with an individual’s biological sex. While gender identity could be a consideration for personal and social recognition, it does not replace or override the biological realities that must be considered in healthcare.

Differential Legal Rights
The legal framework recognises and protects sex and gender separately.
Sex-Based Protections: Women have the right to single sex spaces in certain contexts (e.g., hospital wards, prisons, and changing facilities) under the Equality Act 2010.
Gender-Based Protections: The Gender Recognition Act 2004 allows individuals with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to be legally recognised as their acquired gender, but this does not erase sex-based rights or override biological considerations in all circumstances.

By failing to uphold these legal distinctions, the policy in question risks violating the rights of vulnerable groups, particularly women and those with specific medical needs based on biological sex.

I urge you to reconsider the implementation of this policy considering its legal and ethical shortcomings. Policies within the health service must be based on clear, lawful, and evidence-based considerations that respect the dignity, privacy, and rights of all individuals, particularly the most vulnerable in our society.

I would appreciate a response outlining how these concerns will be addressed and what steps will be taken to ensure that legal obligations are met. I look forward to your prompt attention to this serious matter.

Yours sincerely,

Allan Petrie
Chairperson
Glenlaw House parent/carer support group"

I don't have a link to the policy he's challenging, but will have a look for that later if I have time (working today).

CoaltownFifer · 12/02/2025 09:14

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So, professional abuse, basically explaining the relationship between her sons son's willingness to participate in intimate female care of a potential abuse victim without explicit consent by the patient due to his non disclosure of his true sex? Jesus, she must be conflicted by this case.

Waitwhat23 · 12/02/2025 09:14

Excellent piece about activists in the public sector in the Herald today -

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-herald-1130/20250212/282007563105029

It's not on the Herald website yet, hence the Pressreader link but it's Calum Steele, former General Secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, talking about activists within public sector bodies.

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

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https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-herald-1130/20250212/282007563105029

OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 09:17

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