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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

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35
Liverstreaming · 12/02/2025 08:25

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 01:08

For a second day in a row the student on work experience from Dublin makes the winning headline

gript.ie/peggie-upton-i-am-not-a-man/

Seriously is it possible to nominate that student for some kind of media award? Clear, straightforward, accurate reporting.

BunfightBetty · 12/02/2025 08:25

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

Yes, and his egregious conduct aside, I can’t fathom how this has so far been allowed to stand unchallenged by the judge.

Why hasn’t he been charged with perjury? He’s lied under oath in a court.

borntobequiet · 12/02/2025 08:25

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

A relative of mine - retired psychiatrist, previously rather dismissive of my concerns - peaked 100% in less than ten minutes when I recounted, on the phone, what was said by BU in the hearing yesterday. (He did actually ask me, having seen some press coverage and finding it hard to credit.)

frazzled1 · 12/02/2025 08:29

Biologically male doctor tells Scottish trans Tribunal: “I’m not a man”

Agree 100%. Well done that student.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 08:30

BunfightBetty · 12/02/2025 08:25

Yes, and his egregious conduct aside, I can’t fathom how this has so far been allowed to stand unchallenged by the judge.

Why hasn’t he been charged with perjury? He’s lied under oath in a court.

If so, smart arse Theodore would play the mental illness card, as it was something he reasonably believed at the time. I agree with many others, he should not be anywhere near patients in a medical setting without significant retraining.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 08:30

Tbh this is a very good example of why we need a legal definition of biological sex. It would immediately mean we can't have situations like this.

It's really not ok because it has implications for others.

Largofesse · 12/02/2025 08:32

Yesterday’s testimony and how NC got there is so instructive.

There are almost no games in town that provide the opportunity for a man who is not anywhere near the top of the man tree to deploy his narcissistic desire for power and control (that he feels should have been afforded to him as a man, particularly a doctor man) as the game of sex v. gender.

As a misogynist it must have been so galling for him to train with better female doctors given his intrinsic, though masked, belief that women shouldn’t be doctors (wholly my speculation). I suspect some excellent fellow student, female, consistently trounced him and easily won the admiration of friends and superiors and that is where his to be a women became his goal.

Once in a suitable environment— NHSFife A&E — he could begin to enact his revenge on women and create his own tree to be in the top off.

What has been revealed in cross examination, and in particular how he describes the plaster room incident, is the thrill and sense of excitement he experienced in redefining himself as victim. There are, I’m sure examples of women doing this too but, in general, women have usually experienced sexual harassment of some sort or assault which informs their fear. There is nothing informing this man’s fear other than a generalised TRA claim.

I wonder if somewhere in his past as a man he has made a woman feel very uncomfortable with his advances to the point of making some sort of complaint. This would so undermine how he wants the world to perceive him (his own version of his male self being one who should top the man tree even if no one else seems to agree) that the only option to gainsay the potential tattered reputation would be to become trans and thereafter dictate the terms on how women interact with him.

All just speculation, of course, but there is a subtext to his testimony that tells a fascinating story,

JasmineAllen · 12/02/2025 08:33

mrshoho · 12/02/2025 08:19

Spooky!

It's crazy isn't it. He's behaving (albeit in a very public and extreme manner) as a teenager might, pushing back against his parents values. Like a butchers child becoming an extreme vegan activist.

His mums PhD thesis and the way he now behaves towards women can't be a coincidence IMO.

It's just awful.

Janie143 · 12/02/2025 08:33

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o
The original headline is back. This is the one where DU says sex biological sex was a "nebulous term which doesn't really mean anything" and that he is a biological female

Dr Beth Upton has long brown hair and has a slight smile. The medic wears a colourful scarf and a brown parka jacket

'I am only asking for basic respect' says trans doctor in NHS changing room row

A tribunal hears Dr Beth Upton denied being a man multiple times in a row over who can use women's changing rooms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o

OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 08:33

BunfightBetty · 12/02/2025 08:25

Yes, and his egregious conduct aside, I can’t fathom how this has so far been allowed to stand unchallenged by the judge.

Why hasn’t he been charged with perjury? He’s lied under oath in a court.

He sincerely believes it to be true, I suppose.

bumbledenbarsk · 12/02/2025 08:34

He's been immersive roleplaying for a long time, I suspect. I believe this to be him https://www.tgscience.org/about-me

About Me | TG Science

https://www.tgscience.org/about-me

shrinkingthiswinter · 12/02/2025 08:34

Largofesse · 12/02/2025 08:32

Yesterday’s testimony and how NC got there is so instructive.

There are almost no games in town that provide the opportunity for a man who is not anywhere near the top of the man tree to deploy his narcissistic desire for power and control (that he feels should have been afforded to him as a man, particularly a doctor man) as the game of sex v. gender.

As a misogynist it must have been so galling for him to train with better female doctors given his intrinsic, though masked, belief that women shouldn’t be doctors (wholly my speculation). I suspect some excellent fellow student, female, consistently trounced him and easily won the admiration of friends and superiors and that is where his to be a women became his goal.

Once in a suitable environment— NHSFife A&E — he could begin to enact his revenge on women and create his own tree to be in the top off.

What has been revealed in cross examination, and in particular how he describes the plaster room incident, is the thrill and sense of excitement he experienced in redefining himself as victim. There are, I’m sure examples of women doing this too but, in general, women have usually experienced sexual harassment of some sort or assault which informs their fear. There is nothing informing this man’s fear other than a generalised TRA claim.

I wonder if somewhere in his past as a man he has made a woman feel very uncomfortable with his advances to the point of making some sort of complaint. This would so undermine how he wants the world to perceive him (his own version of his male self being one who should top the man tree even if no one else seems to agree) that the only option to gainsay the potential tattered reputation would be to become trans and thereafter dictate the terms on how women interact with him.

All just speculation, of course, but there is a subtext to his testimony that tells a fascinating story,

Thanks Largofesse. This is so manifestly psychological maladjustment, we need to start talking about what has gone so wrong in the minds of these men.

bumbledenbarsk · 12/02/2025 08:35

bumbledenbarsk · 12/02/2025 08:34

He's been immersive roleplaying for a long time, I suspect. I believe this to be him https://www.tgscience.org/about-me

The contact email address is very interesting given the Gaenslen Test

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 08:40

bumbledenbarsk · 12/02/2025 08:34

He's been immersive roleplaying for a long time, I suspect. I believe this to be him https://www.tgscience.org/about-me

Can't wait mate. Crack on.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13
RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 08:46

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 07:24

Cross post, Bonfire.

Yes, the criteria are different in Scotland. Unlikely to result in conviction, due to safeguarding amendments, but there is no criteria for what constitutes a hate crime other than the perception of person reporting.

Apologies, I'd completely forgotten about the special provisions (re: hate crime) in Scotland.

Clypes' charter - registration stations at mushroom farms or wherever you buy your eggs.

If I worked in NHS Fife, I'd seriously consider a bodycam.

maltravers · 12/02/2025 08:49

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 07:22

Re discussions on hate crime etc - remember Scots law is different from Eng&Wales law. We have our shiny new Hate Crime Act in place.

Was it in place when the “incidents” occurred?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 12/02/2025 08:51

Liverstreaming · 12/02/2025 08:25

Seriously is it possible to nominate that student for some kind of media award? Clear, straightforward, accurate reporting.

Wow, that article is ace. I was thinking that it doesn’t read as impartial. But actually it only states facts. When a person is absolutely cuckoo for cocoa puffs, talking in any fact based way about the things they say is inevitably going to seem a bit one sided (because most people are over here in a place we like to call ‘reality’)

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 08:52

Well the mother thesis IS interesting isn't it.

He appears to be coercively controlling everyone. I don't think it is a coincidence at all.

Harassedevictee · 12/02/2025 08:54

Justme56 · 12/02/2025 08:00

https://forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/

The Scots Women have found Pete!! 😆

This is a fantastic article. Thank you for sharing.

Taytoface · 12/02/2025 08:54

I don't know if any of you listen to crime analyst Laura Richards. She has been a real advocate for getting coercive control on the statute books. I would love her to do some episodes on this case. The attempts at dominating NC, trying to enforce his language, total refusal to recognise the autonomy of women. It is classics and I think NC has drawn that out really well.

SinnerBoy · 12/02/2025 08:56

Blimey, I've finally got through all the posts on all the threads. I hope I can keep up today.

One thing that struck me is that Upton and Fife claimed that there was no investigation, but were forced to concede that there was one; surely that's perjury, exacerbated by the deliberate withholding of the two tranches of emails?

Even if JR did through Upton a bone, by claiming that she hadn't explained disclosure well enough to him.

As there was an investigation, which didn't follow proper procedure, surely that's a huge plus for Sandie Peggie? The suspension absolutely must have been illegitimate.

Retrospeaker · 12/02/2025 08:56

myplace · 11/02/2025 20:00

He reminds me of what must be a character in a film- that very contained, softly spoken and entirely false persona. I can’t quite place it though.

I haven’t actually seen him as haven’t been watching the proceedings - but what you said immediately made me think of Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter!

Datun · 12/02/2025 08:56

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 08:40

Can't wait mate. Crack on.

It says TG Science - it wants to be science, but doesn't quite have what it takes

ClosdesMouches · 12/02/2025 08:57

I have yet to catch up yesterday's threads. I am only up to lunch time so far, have tried to skim read since then.

Can someone please tell me what time it's supposed to start this morning? I have 10.30 in my head from somewhere. And it's TT to follow live as no public access?

thistlewhistlewheest · 12/02/2025 08:58

The crowdfunded for Sandie is already double the one for DU!!! Grin

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