Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
SqueakyDinosaur · 12/02/2025 07:42

And with JR leaping in at every opportunity. I think with hindsight, NHS Fife may think it was a mistake to have one barrister representing both respondents.

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 07:45

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 07:39

The Scottish Hate Crime law that came into action on April 1st 2024, did it allow for the ability to report past 'hate crimes'? Does anyone know?

I assume so, given that there were hundreds of reports of the then 1st minister's speech made some time previously.

myplace · 12/02/2025 07:47

That student journalist is gold. Not sure whether they are on track for journalism or comedy. Satirical news show, perhaps.

And the mother’s dissertation… 😲

Has he perhaps studied and learned just how to leverage his privilege?

ThatsNotMyTeen · 12/02/2025 07:49

I had a look on Bluesky last night. Some TRAs have complained to the BBC about their articles. Not on the basis they’ve used male pronouns for him - they haven’t - but because they have used Dr and Dr Upton and not she/her

Sums this madness up. Not misgendering is not enough. Complete capitulation to the cult is required

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 07:54

ThatsNotMyTeen · 12/02/2025 07:49

I had a look on Bluesky last night. Some TRAs have complained to the BBC about their articles. Not on the basis they’ve used male pronouns for him - they haven’t - but because they have used Dr and Dr Upton and not she/her

Sums this madness up. Not misgendering is not enough. Complete capitulation to the cult is required

The TRA's collectively swarm institutions and the Press, imposing their thoughts and feelings in an overbearing and bullying (and often coordinated) manner.

Males acting as a community, who refer to each other as members of "my people" are dangerous, like the extreme elements of football hooliganism.

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 07:54

He is man, woman and trans all for different reasons. Pick and choose whichever benefits him.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 07:55

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 07:54

He is man, woman and trans all for different reasons. Pick and choose whichever benefits him.

For a moment I thought you wrote Prick, which would have been my choice.

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 07:56

My other take on this, is how many women have been marked as 'aggressive' on their notes and thus given the NHS the option to refuse to treat based on this?

ElsaThebrave8 · 12/02/2025 07:58

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

This is what I can't get over.
He is insisting he is a woman.
If so, then he can't be trans, so SP could not have been bigoted towards him for his trans status!
It's infuriating.
Though I suspect those of you who have been fighting this for years are well used to this madness....

Datun · 12/02/2025 07:59

myplace · 12/02/2025 07:47

That student journalist is gold. Not sure whether they are on track for journalism or comedy. Satirical news show, perhaps.

And the mother’s dissertation… 😲

Has he perhaps studied and learned just how to leverage his privilege?

It's just too weird for words. The coincidence is inexplicable.

Skyellaskerry · 12/02/2025 07:59

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

I can’t get my head around this at all.

HipTightOnions · 12/02/2025 08:02

He is insisting he is a woman.
If so, then he can't be trans

Wouldn't he argue he is trans purely because he was incorrectly "assigned male at birth"?

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 08:02

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 07:56

My other take on this, is how many women have been marked as 'aggressive' on their notes and thus given the NHS the option to refuse to treat based on this?

Fear can often manifest as aggression too. So instead of communicating with a patient and working to address fears, which is time-consuming and therefore costly, it's easier to write off as aggression.

This is a safeguarding fail in its own right. Not understanding that a patient is fearful, potentially puts a patient at risk because you have failed to question what and why they are afraid. It may reveal that patient is at risk in someway.

Instead in classifying a patient like this as aggressive, you put them at additional risk and may add to problems by actively traumatising them and destroying trust in professionals they should be able to trust.

AlisonDonut · 12/02/2025 08:03

ElsaThebrave8 · 12/02/2025 07:58

This is what I can't get over.
He is insisting he is a woman.
If so, then he can't be trans, so SP could not have been bigoted towards him for his trans status!
It's infuriating.
Though I suspect those of you who have been fighting this for years are well used to this madness....

If he was a women he wouldn't need to let anyone know he was using the female changing rooms.

So by doing that he confirms he knows he isn't one.

CheekySnake · 12/02/2025 08:04

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 07:52

It is disturbing and disgusting that a male can stand in a court of law under oath and swear blind he's biologically female, especially when he's a doctor, and not being held in contempt of court. Regardless of his gender identity.

The very nature of being trans is that your gender doesn't align with your sex.

This is not ok.

The problem we've got here is that Upton is using a different system to determine sex than the rest of us. He's not talking about 'gender identity' at all. As he patronisingly said, bio sex is far to complex to be determined by a quick check for a penis or a vulva when we're born. It encompasses so many things. Primary characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, endocrine sex, social sex (I think there may have been more). He eagerly listed them for the judge, who wrote them down.

The rest of us can use the old fashioned system if we wish but we're wrong. And if we use our system and don't respect his by agreeing with it, he has no choice but to have us punished. In fact, it goes without saying that people won't respect his system. That's why he kept a diary of what female nurses were doing in the changing room, so he'd have evidence when he inevitably needed it later.

His system, based on a method he hasn't fully explained, says that he is biologically female and he will not budge from that. And means that if a woman asks for same sex care, he's automatically included in the pool of docs who can provide that. Obviously if the woman asks him personally not to touch her vagina or bottom then he won't, but she will have to stop him at that point. Her initial request doesn't exclude him.

The only conclusion I can draw is that he's lying, or he's mentally unwell, and either way, shouldn't be in female spaces.

myplace · 12/02/2025 08:10

CheekySnake · 12/02/2025 08:04

The problem we've got here is that Upton is using a different system to determine sex than the rest of us. He's not talking about 'gender identity' at all. As he patronisingly said, bio sex is far to complex to be determined by a quick check for a penis or a vulva when we're born. It encompasses so many things. Primary characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, endocrine sex, social sex (I think there may have been more). He eagerly listed them for the judge, who wrote them down.

The rest of us can use the old fashioned system if we wish but we're wrong. And if we use our system and don't respect his by agreeing with it, he has no choice but to have us punished. In fact, it goes without saying that people won't respect his system. That's why he kept a diary of what female nurses were doing in the changing room, so he'd have evidence when he inevitably needed it later.

His system, based on a method he hasn't fully explained, says that he is biologically female and he will not budge from that. And means that if a woman asks for same sex care, he's automatically included in the pool of docs who can provide that. Obviously if the woman asks him personally not to touch her vagina or bottom then he won't, but she will have to stop him at that point. Her initial request doesn't exclude him.

The only conclusion I can draw is that he's lying, or he's mentally unwell, and either way, shouldn't be in female spaces.

Edited

Under his system, there are about ten sex markers- 9 or so which pretty much everyone would agree with- hormones, chromosomes, secondary characteristics etc.
He is male according to 9 of them.

The tenth marker, which can’t be measured or identified and is recognised by a select group of people, is a feeling.

So he’s claiming womanhood based on the one unmeasurable, in-observable, widely disputed marker and in defiance of the other 9.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 12/02/2025 08:10

OhBuggerandArse · 12/02/2025 07:56

Sandie's dad's fundraiser over £11000 this morning :-)

https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/

Everytime I read that page, I get emotional.

It's such a lovely thing. Just normal people, showing support in the only way they can.

"There is some good in this world Mr Frodo and it's worth fighting for"

CheekySnake · 12/02/2025 08:12

Should have also said: when Upton examines the woman who asked for same sex care, he made it clear that he would assume she was using his system for determining sex and if she didn't refuse him, he would take that as confirmation that she agreed he was female.

Women who refused were transphobic (which he compares to being racist)

And yet he's assumed re the changing room that the women in there would be using the old fashioned method, hence the note taking.

Funny that.

CheekySnake · 12/02/2025 08:13

myplace · 12/02/2025 08:10

Under his system, there are about ten sex markers- 9 or so which pretty much everyone would agree with- hormones, chromosomes, secondary characteristics etc.
He is male according to 9 of them.

The tenth marker, which can’t be measured or identified and is recognised by a select group of people, is a feeling.

So he’s claiming womanhood based on the one unmeasurable, in-observable, widely disputed marker and in defiance of the other 9.

There appears to be an eleventh marker - making other people describe him as female and use female pronouns for him.

Oh and dangly earrings and long hair obvs

borntobequiet · 12/02/2025 08:18

I genuinely know a Pete the Plumber who would be absolutely perfect to play himself. But he wouldn’t want to be dragged into this.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 08:19

@CheekySnake

To my mind many women are concerned with SSS

Single Sex Spaces

Theodore seeks to undermine the concerns of women with SS

Semantics and Sophistry

mrshoho · 12/02/2025 08:19

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Spooky!

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.